Govinda Dasi
Whew!

Gauridasa Pandita Dasa
LOL
I was hoping for a little more than that! SPEECH! I prefer the opinions of the pure and chastest the mostest! Close this thread with a few loving words of wisdom and nectar about your time with HDG ~ pretty please?
Always your friend
~*~ & ♥ ! ~=>; )

Govinda Dasi
Where to begin? So many wonderful devotees with such strong opinions! It’s almost as if Krishna wants to keep our minds and hearts engaged in some kind of battle, so that we don’t lose interest! He definitely does like drama; just look at Mahabharata, Ramayana, etc. It seems that Krishna likes to put the devotee again and again into the fire, just as the blacksmith does to strengthen the steel!

Let me assure you that many early devotees heard Srila Prabhupada often say, “These will be the law books for the next 10,000 years.” That is common knowledge among early disciples. That it has not been recorded in folio, or lectures, is somehow hard to understand. However, I can say that many many lectures have not been made public, and many conversations were not recorded. I know for certain I recorded many lectures in Hawaii in 1969, and they are not available to the public, even though I submitted all my original tapes in excellent condition. So I would say that although we have a lot,we don’t have everything. Some devotees have told me that some stuff is on the discs, and not on folio, and vice versa. But there is overwhelming concensus on this 10,000 year books comment.

Another statement that most early devotees heard is the one about Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. I have in past discussed this with Brahmananda and he also assured me that he and many others had heard it, worded slightly differently, but with the same meaning. The way I heard it was always: Srila Bhaktisiddhanta repeatedly told them, don’t anyone try to become guru(or acharya), just go on with your service and whoever is meant to be guru will come out automatically in time. Srila Prabhupada said this in relation to Gaudiya Math, and in relation to Iskcon as well. We all knew it. He wanted everyone to go on with their service, to cooperate and work together as when he was present, and in due course of time, whoever was meant to be guru (or gurus, I suppose) would come out in time. This was not done and the result is the present day state of chaos, as well as the sad spiritual demise of many very qualified and sincere disciples. The guru business is a bad business--if it’s a business that is. Pratista is a dangerous thing, and even highly qualified devotees can be brought to the brink of ruin by name, fame and adoration. It’s part of the conditioned soul’s eternal malady.... Read More

Srila Prabhupada’s instruction holds true, however, nothing has changed. No doubt it will all be sorted out in time--already much “sorting” has taken place, by the arrangement of higher authorities. Srila Prabhupada has said, “go on with your service and whoever is meant to be acharya will come out in time”--and that’s what will happen. Our only business should be to go on with our service. The “whoever is meant to be acharya will come out in time” part isn’t up to us, that’s up to Krishna (unless, of course, we are aspiring to become a guru...) And in that case, no doubt we will be severely tested as have so many disciples who chose to take up this role.

The book changes issue is far more important. Yes, it is true that editing took place while Srila Prabhupada was present with us. But he oversaw everything. He was able to watch over the work of the editors and the artists; his “omni-present” presence was uncanny. He once explained to me that the guru is omniscient and omnipresent is the sense that he is always with Krishna, and therefore he can be in the heart of each disciple. He can know the heart and mind of each disciple. In that way he watches over everything, and those of us who love Srila Prabhupada have certainly experienced this, and often, if our consciousness is purified enough, we continue to experience his presence even now.

The danger with editing is that there is no end to it. It continues to go on, and in the course of time, say 100 years from now, will we have the same books? One change per year could mean a complete change at the end of a 100 years. You get what I mean.

The point that one devotee made is well taken: Why change only his written words, why not his lectures too?! We have no right to change either his written words or his spoken words. He made it clear on numerous occasions, saying “no changes, “no more changes.” Because he knew our Western (esp American) disease of always wanting to change or “improve” things. On one occasion, he said “These American boys, they want to always change everything. Next, they will be asking me if they can kill cows to make mridangas!” He often talked about the “changing disease.” Because we have no tradition, no long term cultural stability as does old India. (I say “old” India because, as everyone can see, India has taken up the changing disease of the West with great gusto..)

The very real danger here is that Srila Prabhupada’s authentic teachings as he wrote in his books could be lost in time. Just as the Bible has been revised dozens of times, things removed and added, the same thing could easily happen to Prabhupada’s books. Maybe not in our lifetime, but in the course of time. In future, there may be 35 editions of the Bhagavad Gita As It Is, all bearing Srila Prabhupada’s 1971 signature, so how will historians even know which one is the original? Yes, Prabhus, look at the edited edition, bearing over 5000 changes (though Prabhupada only requested two specifically...)and you will see that this edition, edited after Srila Prabhupada’s departure from this world, has in it his May 12, 1971 signature!

The BBT claims they want to make the books more presentable to scholars, however, we have consulted Dr. John Trimble, (Elements of Style) one of the most prestigious writing professors in America, and have been told that “post-humous”
editing is never respected in the scholarly community. So from the authentic scholarly/textbook perspective, it is called “bawdlerizing.”

From the Gaudiya tradition perspective, it is also considered unethical. When HH B.V. Narayana Maharaja was asked about this post-humous editing, he explained it is wrong, it is not to be done, and to do so will lose the “writer’s voice.”
So if it is frowned upon by both scholarly tradition as well as Gaudiya Vaishanava tradition, the real question should be:


“WHY is it being done?”


Tim Lee
We did start a lawsuit to get the original books printed and started KBI, Krishna Books International, and we have printed some original editions. Even some official ISKCON temples immediately wanted our books, and Jayadvaita was infuriated.

The problem is that they use their legal clout to supress the originals. For example, this year at Rathayatra, Jayadvaita swami sent out Vaisesika around to see if anyone was selling our original books, and he found one table with some of our original books.

These devotees were vociferously told they had to put those books away "or there will not be any San Francisco Rathayatras anymore." So this means the rank and file devotees wanted originals, but the leaders are trying to force people to buy only the changed books. Notice also that there will be no festivals, no temples, no Rathayatra festivals, they do not care if the whole movement is ruined, they just want their changed books.... Read More

Now look at the reaction of the big spiritual Bhagavad Gita warriors, people like Gauridasa, he thinks he should not oppose any of this, he should be a nice guy. So if you want to know why this is all being done, its being done because people like Gauridasa and his ilk have never wanted to stop them to do whatever they want to, and his idea is we should shut down this thread and not protest.

"When good people remain silent, the bad people will take over." All these problems, false gurus, changed books, etc. has occured because the main body of devotees that were reading about Bhagavad Gita, fight for justice, ran off the battle field and let the bad guys win. I was interviewed by Jane Wallace of CBS news (she is the daughter of Mike Wallace), she said, the book you folks read is Bhagavad Gita, fight to the death for justice, and yet as soon as there is a blatantly gay guru, dressed in golden and silken robes with a huge golden crown "problem," your folks are hiding under a rock.

In other words her point is, instead of fighting for justice, your folks run away and hide under a rock, you cannot even take on someone way worse than Liberace posing as a messiah. Hence: even the outside karmi people have read Bhagavad Gita better than some of our devotees. So she answered your question, why is all this going on, because the body of devotees is acqueiscing and allowing it. thanks pd

Prabhupad Das Karapurnam
Tim [Puranjana Das], I respectfully disagree with you on all the philosophical points you have presented and have nothing further to exchange with you. There is nothing to be gained by constant attempts to convince one another to change or accept positions neither of us will ever concede. I wish you all success in your Prabhupadanuga/Ritvik ... Read Moremovement.

Karnamrita Prabhu, please excuse this digression on your page if you find it inappropriate. Relationships "are" everything, but, when two people fixed in opposing views come to an impasse, and the only path forward is one of interminable combat, it is best to end the relationship and find connections elsewhere that are more amenable and productive.

The transformations in ISKCON have an effect just like the Civil War in America where hundreds of brothers killed one another over differences in ideology. I pray that the posthumous Shrla Prabhupad civil war is over soon.
25 minutes ago

Tim Lee
Thanks PKD: You have summed the whole "relationships with guru" problem in a nutshell: (a) there are devotees like yourself who call their guru "the posthumous" (dead person) and (b) there are those of us who feel our guru's Srila Prabhupada's living presence all the time.

I drectly feel (and have the relationship) that Srila Prabhupada is not dead and posthumous at all, in fact the whole application of the term "the dead (posthumous) guru" actually gives me the creeps! God is eternal and so are His acharyas, and this is my direct experience in a RELATIONSHIP with them both. My relationship with guru is alive, it is a billion trillion miles away from "posthumous."

Thus, there are those of us who would have bumper stickers -- like those that say "Jesus Is Alive," and then there are people who have bumper stickers "God Is Dead," its all a matter of how people perceive their relationships. ... Read More

My relationship with Srila Prabhupada is living and growing, it is not dead and posthumous, so we have different relationships with everyone, including, the guru. The topic is relationships, if your relationship with anyone is dead and posthumous, its going to obviously not be appreciated by those whose relationship is constant, daily, eternal, living and growing.

So this is good, we can sum that your relationsship with guru is dead and posthumous, ours (and our Prabhupadanuga's associates) is living and growing. That is the difference in our relationships, thanks pd

Right, it really does not matter what external post one has, if one is disconnected from the root. Ravana also posed as a sannyasa ... and kidnapped Sita, and then whenever his head was shot off, another appeared. So when one ISKCON bogus sannyasa bloops, they vote in ten more, hah hah. You are right, the main problem is disconnection, not the formal post. IT IS JUST THAT -- The sannyasa post makes them more dangerous because people respect the post, just like Ravana was more dangerous dressed as a sannyasa. So it really does not matter what formal post they have, they are deviated, that is correct. They have no potency anymore, that is why they are suing our Bangalore devotees, they cannot do anything, and as soon as someone does something nice, they want to kill that, they are envious. thanks pd

First of all Sviarama swami (and his ilk) said that we need to accept the advice of Sridhara Maharaja, or else we need to be banned from ISKCON. Then later, Sivarama swami and ilk was aiding the distributing of a paper that said anyone who accepts Sridhara Maharaja needs to be banned from ISKCON.

Then Sivarama swami said that we need to work with Tamal's rasika classes from Narayana Maharaja, or we should be beaten with shoes, then suddenly he said, anyone who associates with Narayana Maharaja is -- ok, to be banned from ISKCON.

Sivarama's pals were also associating with BV Puri, then they said, no one can associate with BV Puri and he is a rascal who is trying to take over Italy ISKCON, and so on and so forth. First of all, we need to know what is Sivarama's actual position? Then maybe we can follow him or not. We cannot follow a person whose entire siddhanta changes every few years. First of all a person needs to establish their siddhanta, then we can see if others will accept or not, a person who changes siddhanta, a siddhanta chameleon, cannot be followed anyway? thanks pd    

In January of 1977 Srila Prabhupada said, no more sannyasa, because his followers are not fit for sannyasa. He said his sannyasas are making a laughing stock out of the sannyasa order (varnasrama), so those who failed should get married and let us suspend the sannyasa order. He said instead, lets make varnasrama farms based on married folks, i.e. householders. That was his plan, to gradually divest the sannyasa order and increase the householder's based managers. 

Oddly, according to the GBC, a few months later, June of 1977, Srila Prabhupada had decided those who are not fit for sannyasa, are Vishnupada gurus? This tends to prove the theory that he did not appoint gurus, why would he appoint those unfit for sannyasa -- as Vishnupada gurus?

And so then, instead of suspending sannyasa, the GBC made about 230 more sannyasas and gurus, and most of them failed, just as Prabhupada said they were failing. So its lonely at the top, if you are artificially at the top by making yourself artifically someone, ... you are not. All cult leaders are lonely at the top, take that from any good psychotherapist.

The way forward is thus: the way backwards, the itishasa, the history or where things went off the rails, we have to study the actual instructions and go back to the point where the wrong fork in in the road was taken, and start off on the right road. The right road is to suspend sannyasa and make communities based on maried folks. Thanks pd