Click here to check out an interview with Aja West & Cheeba in Wax Poetics magazine. Aja and I also break down our all-time favorite analog synth-heavy albums.

      

This is a phone interview I did with Peter Ostrum in September of 2000. Peter played Charlie in Willy Wonka & the Chocalate Factory.




First of all, I grew up with WWCF being one of my favorite films, and Charlie Bucket was most likely one of the first role models in my life. I'm excited to be talking with you and I'm equally glad that you're willing to do this interview. I asked Paris Themmen (Mike Teevee) this when I interviewed him, and I'm curious to hear your take: did you have any idea when shooting WWCF that you were working on a film that would be deemed a classic by so many future generations?
Thirty years later, no. No idea. I don't think any of us did. I can remember the scene with Diana Sowle (Mrs. Bucket) and I, before she did 'Cheer Up Charlie'. It was the scene after the fifth golden ticket had supposedly been found and Charlie was telling his mother not to worry about him not finding any of the golden tickets because they had all already been found, and he kind of loses it a bit. Mel Stuart, the director, was saying, 'Oh, there's the Oscar winning scene' and I was thinking 'Yeah right, I don't think so'. It's funny because when it came out, it really received luke warm reviews. My parents kept some of the reviews and reading them now, people were only mildly excited.

When did the film make it's transition into a classic?
I would say ten years ago it starting becoming really popular. It's been on television so many times. For the first twenty years after it was out there, there really wasn't much interest. I guess five years ago, when they had the 25th anniversary, is when they started to track us down. All the kids in the film were adults now and people were curious as to what happened to all of us.

Personally, I think one reason why the film is so successful is because your portrayal of Charlie comes off as so sincere and convincing.
(laughter) What you saw in that film was basically the way that I was at that point in my life. Acting, yes, but I really don't think that I was playing anybody other than myself. The direction that we were given by Mel was sort of like, 'do it, and if I don't like it than I'll tell you'. There was a fair amount of direction from Jack Albertson (Grandpa Joe) and Gene Wilder, not that Mel didn't direct, because he certainly did, but I don't ever recall us sitting down before we did a scene and really discussing it. My portrayal was as much Peter Ostrum as anything.

Would you say that it was like that for the other kids too?
No, it probably wasn't because they were not as they portrayed. Now, as adults it's been a lot of fun seeeing them again and seeing the type of people that they've evolved into. They certainly haven't evolved into their characters.

How were you cast for Charlie?
I got involved in a children's theater in Cleveland, and it happened to be one of the theaters that the casting agency contacted when they were casting the film. I was in the right place at the right time.

How did that go down?
They came out when I just finished 6th grade. I was twelve at the time and they didn't have a script then. They took a few polaroid pictures and they had a tape recorder and we just read from the book. A couple months later they flew me back to New York for a screen test. About three weeks later they finally contacted us and said they had made their decision. Two weeks later I had to be in Munich, Germany where it was filmed.

How did you feel when you got the phone call saying that you had gotten the role? Was that like winning the golden ticket?
Yeah, exactly. I can remember when the casting agency originally called and thinking that it was such a long shot. I said, 'Sure, I'll try out. I've got nothing to lose.' After the screen test they were pretty confident that they wanted me. When they finally made their decision, though, it was exciting.

In Munich, did the five of you kids spend time together when not on set?
We were all in the same hotel so we were together a lot. We were on the third story, in tiny rooms, but you could see the Alps from our rooms. It was beautiful. We worked five days a week, and then on weekends, as far as doing anything like skiing where you might hurt yourself, they put the wraps on that. We were free to travel, though.

The guy who played Augustus, he was from Munich, right? Was he staying at the hotel?
No. As far as screen time he had a pretty small role. And he couldn't speak English and we couldn't speak German, so that kind of limited our relationship. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure his lines were all dubbed. Now his english is pretty good.

I heard a rumor that Julie (Veruca) had a crush on you during the filming?
(Laughter) I guess so. We were all going through puberty at the time so we probably all had crushes on each other. I probably had a crush on her as well as Denise (Violet).

One of the most intriguing things about you is that you never acted again after Wonka and you were even offered a three picture deal and you turned it down and…
Do I have any regrets?

Well…
Somedays I do, but most of the time I'm extremely happy. Somedays I wonder what it would be like to be doing something else right now. After the film was over, I just wanted to go back and be a normal thirteen year old kid and maybe that's why I didn't sign another picture deal. I guess I don't like the light to be shining on me. The other thing was that I had no input in what the three pictures would be. Years later, during my first year of college at Ohio State, I flew out to California and saw Stan Margulies, who was our producer. I spoke to him to see what it would have been like if I were to get back into acting. I think it would have been tough. Yes, I had something nice on my resume but I wasn't a shoe-in for anything. I basically came away thinking that I had better keep my ass in school. I really wanted to see if I could get into veterinary school, and if I couldn't, then I would go on to these other things.

Why a veterinarian?
After the film, my family acquired a horse and I worked out at the stable where we kept the horse and really enjoyed that. The veterinarian who came and took care of the horse really impressed me as being somebody who really enjoyed what they did for a living. My dad was a lawyer and I didn't have a clue what he did during the day. At the farm, though, I knew exactly what this guy did and I was amazed that he seemed really happy at what he did. Now, I'm in a mixed animal practice where we do both large animals and small animals. I mainly do large animals, almost all dairy cattle. There are more cows in our county than there are people.

And you're married?
Yeah, and I have two children. A daughter eight and son who's three.

Have they both seen Wonka?
Yeah, my son enjoys watching it but he doesn't understand that that's his dad. My daughter is into it. She was at the first reunion and was amazed that people wanted to talk to me and get my autograph.

This is something I'm just curious about, and of course you don't have to answer, but back then, was the film business as lucrative as it is now for child stars?
Oh boy, no. (laughter) Back then it seemed like a fair amount, but it really wasn't when compared to what kids are making now. It's crazy. It was pretty meager.

Was Wonka the single incident that probably shaped your life the most?
Yes, I think so. It certainly contributed greatly to the person I became. It's funny looking back, thinking back thirty years. It was really a short period in my life and it's funny that that segment keeps coming back, replaying itself. One of my favorite stories as to how my life was impacted after that was when I was talking to my older brother and I was telling him about Gene Wilder. I said, 'boy, he was really cool and I want to be just like him.' My brother looked at me really seriously and goes, 'Peter, why don't you just be yourself.'

So Gene left a pretty big impression on you?
Yeah.

When did you last speak to him?
Boy, I don't think I have seen him since then, but I have spoken to him once, maybe twice, but it's been probably 25 years.

I heard he's pretty sick right now.
Yeah, cancer. They are trying to be in contact with him for the new DVD release but I don't know if that will take place.

Paris Themmen played the obnoxious, TV-crazed, trigger happy, lucky ticket winner number four in Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory. I interviewed him in September of 2000 at San Diego's Comic-Con Convention where he was happily satisfying requests for autographed copies of his home-made golden tickets.



I find it an amazing testament to the longevity of Wonka that three decades after playing the role of Mike Teevee, you're here at the San Diego Comic-Con Convention signing autographs for countless fans. I know you were only eleven when you shot Wonka, but did you have any idea then that you were working on a film that would become such a classic.
I didn't actually. It was pretty clear to us that it was a good film and I remember that on set we were joking around that we'd all get Oscars. I think one of the reasons that it has enduring popularity is that it operates on more than one level. If you're a kid, you can watch the blobs of color moving around and there is a lot of stuff for kids. However, it is also very much an adult movie. Not an adult movie as in 'adult film', but it has aspects that adults appreciate as well.

How were you cast for the film?
I started acting when I was six. I was on Broadway when I was eight and doing commercials. Actually, I talked to the director about a year ago and I expected him to say that hundreds of kids had auditioned for the role, but I guess I was like the fifth one they saw. I think that the pool of child actors who were working then was much smaller, so there really weren't many of us around. When he saw me he said 'O.K., great. That's our guy'. They wanted to use me for Charlie I heard but I was too small. I was younger, which is too bad because I really could sing. I sang on Broadway and that type of stuff. Veruca got a song. Charlie got a song. I didn't. That was too bad.

You must have had a blast working on the film, especially as young as you were.
It was definitely very fun to make. We shot it in Munich, Germany. Great sets, props, scripts. I don't have anything but the nicest things to say about all the people involved. It just worked out that Jack Albertson was particularly nice.

Grandpa Joe?
Yeah, he was Grandpa Joe, who's gone now. Roy Kinnear (Veruca's dad, Mr. Salt) is also dead. He died on the set of one of the Musketter movies. He was riding a horse that slipped on the cobbles and he went into a coma and a few days later he was dead.

How's Augustus?
He's doing well. He's an accountant in Munich, Germany. Veruca is mostly a voice-over actress in Sori, England. Peter Ostrum, who played Charlie, is a large animal veterinarian in upstate New York. Denise, who played Violet, just got custody of her child so she's really happy about that after her divorce.

It's common knowledge that the Munchkins from the Wizard of Oz were pretty big partiers when they weren't on set. Did the Oompa-Loompas keep in the tradition?
They were wild. Yes they were. They liked to get drunk. I was 11 so I wasn't hanging and partying with them but I was told that they loved to drink and hang out. I don't think they were smashing up hotel rooms, but they themselves were getting smashed. If you wanted a good time, the Oompa-Loompa's were there to cause that. On set, though, it was strictly professional.

How long have you been doing the convention circuit?
About two years ago I did my first convention and I sort of caught the bug. I personally love science fiction and fantasy, animation, playing games. There is a lot about this world that I just personally enjoy. And, you know, it's easy money obviously. You sit there, you sign a photograph or a replica golden-ticket and by virtue of the fact that you wrote your name on it, it becomes worth ten, fifteen, twenty, fifty, you know, dollars more than it was before you signed it. It's like printing money. There is a down side which is that people tend to ask the same five questions over again, 'was it fun?', 'was gene wilder nice?', 'was it all chocolate?'. It's almost like an acting exercise. If you're on stage in theater, as I was for years, you have to find a way to make it new each time.

Is there a typical Mike Teevee fan?
These days, it spans very much. I get four year-olds, I certainly get people my own age ,which is 41. Actually, I do pretty well with women and girls.

Really?
Well that's the way it is. Not that I'm particularly sexy, but it operates on that level of 'oh, isn't he cute'. Yeah, I do well with the female gender. Also, just men and women who are Gen-X. Marilyn Manson-ish. There is a whole big area of society now which is kind of, well, not marginal, but they like to think they are. They're really into Willy Wonka.

Does the convention circuit leave much time for other work?
I only do this some of the time. The rest of my full-time job these days is casting. I've been running camera in commercial casting sessions in Los Angeles. Actually you're reaching me at a time of transition. On Monday, I have an appointment with Morgan Stanley, Dean Witter, and hopefully I will get that in which case I will be a broker.

Stock broker?
Yeah. I've already been a real estate broker, a travel agent, I've traveled to 40 countries, and I've worked at Disney. I've done a lot of square things as well as creative things. I've worked in film production, acting, dancing. I've worked both sides of it. I'm drifting back now, a little bit more right wing, going for the bucks and going to be a broker for a while.

Speaking of 'going for the bucks', is it true that you were recently a contestant on 'Win Ben Stein's Money'?
Yeah, that's a true fact. The fact is I was on Win Ben Stein's Money and another true fact is that I did not win any of Ben Stein's money. I tanked on that game show. About a year prior to that I was on trivial pursuit and I took them for everything they had, answered all the questions, won $5,000 and a trip to Jamaica for a buddy of mine and I. So I'm pretty good but I sure did blow Win Ben Stein's Money.

What caused all that foam that came out of the Wonka-Mobile?
I don't know if this is still true, but in 1970, if you were going to land an airplane and you lost your landing gear, they had fire extinguisher that they would spread on the airstrip to reduce the friction and that's what this was. And it was very cold. At least a couple people got a rash from it.

I thought your screams seemed pretty realistic.
No, I was acting. That was totally acting. I liked it.

I heard that during the Jim Jones tragedy, all the kids in the suicide cult were placed in front of a television set and Wonka was put on to distract the kids from what was going on around them. Then, they all drank the poison.
Oh! You're kidding me! That's extremely trippy. I never heard that. It doesn't sound that far from what I hear from some people, which is that they use it as a video babysitter. I can remember one couple that used to say that every time they wanted to have sex, that in order to get a little privacy they'd punch in the old Wonka tape and you know, go and do the nasty, and then come back an hour and a half later.

Do you have any kids yourself?
No. No kids.

Ever been married?
Never been married. Never asked anybody. Still looking around.

A lot of people, including myself, think that one of the best scenes in the movie is the brief interaction we see between you and your father. Your father's line 'not 'till your twelve son' is one of the best from the film.
I can tell you some stuff about that line. That was his one line. It took him in any case better than 40 takes to deliver that one line. It worked though, absolutely. The interesting thing is that if they decide to call me for a cameo in a remake, the logical place to put me would be as my own father which would give me that one line. At least I get a good line, so that's cool. I would much prefer that I'd be able to go through the whole movie, though.

How realistic is a Wonka remake?
I've heard for years that maybe it's going to happen. Most recently the rumors have been increasing. The last that I've heard is that they have a director and they have a scriptwriter. The script is by Scott Frank who wrote 'Out of Sight'. The director is the guy who directed 'Pleasantville'. My understanding is that they're not doing it as a musical. They're going to try to stick closer to the book. Honestly, I've got to tell you, most of the people that I discuss the remake with, the vast majority of the Wonka fans say 'terrible idea, don't do that, why would you try to fix it'. In any case, though, it seems like they're trying to take a different tack on it. I'm open to the possibility that they'll do it and they'll do it right. I just have experienced along with all of you the many terrible remakes and so I'm skeptical.

Why remake such a perfect film?
It's the bottom line. That's why.

I first contacted you on paristhemmen.com. How is that going?
It's pretty cool. It's been up for a couple years now. I sell photos on it. I talk about my fellow Wonka players.

Is there anything else in the near future that we should look for from you?
Yeah, I'm going to sell you stocks.

Where are you living now?
West Hollywood...but I'm not gay.

This conversation took place in November of 2000, a few weeks after the release of Stankonia. It was the first ever conversation between Beck and Outkast. It was a four-way phone call, with Beck at home in Los Angeles, Andre in the studio in Atlanta, Big Boi in his car, and myself at a friend's apartment in Boston.



Beck's words are in bold text.
Andre's words are preceded by "A".
Big Boi's words are preceded by "BB".
Cheeba's words are in green.


ANDRE: Hello? Where Beck at?
BECK: Yeah, can you hear me?
A: Who is this?
This is Beck.
A: What's going on man?
How you doing?
A: Chillin', man. I just want to let you know before we get started with this interview that I love your shit, man. I love what you're doing. On the serious tip. You a wild boy, yeeeah (laughter).
Did you know my stuff before this?
A: Nah, actually not. I heard like little singles and stuff and saw like your little videos and performances. And then I picked up the Mutations album.
Did you hear the last one? Did you hear Midnite Vultures?
A: Hold up. Is that the one with the crazy spray paint looking stuff on the cover?
Yeah, yeah.
A: That's the one. That's what I'm talking about.
The thing that struck me when Stankonia came out, I felt like they were kind of like cousins in a weird way.
A: Yeah, yeah.
I was gonna ask you about Prince because he was a big inspiration for Midnite Vultures.
A: Prince, to me, is like the greatest of our time, as far as song writing and producing, all that.
Yeah, it's funny now because I think when I was making my last record, Prince wasn't somebody that people were talking much about. He kind of ebbs and flows. People don't really cite him as an influence much these days, especially not in the rock world. For me, he just represents possibilities, you know. He does it all.
A: Most definitely.
And he has that sense of humor that I think you guys have, which is a rare commodity. Something artistic but also with a sense of humor, playfulness.
A: Yeah, man, you've got to keep it fun.
CHEEBA: Have either of you ever worked with Prince?
A: No, we never really hooked up with him. The New Power Generation sent Organized Noize a remix to do and he actually rhymed on the remix, but I don't think it ever came out. He came to a show and I said "hey" from a long distance but I never met him up close.
You did a track with George Clinton on Aquemini, right? What's it like to collaborate with artists that inspired you when you were coming up?
A: I think it's cool on a certain level. It's cool to try to bring them up to the times and not be trying to recreate what they're doing. Nothing like that. It's cool to let people know your influences. A lot of people don't tell their influences because they think that it's all coming from their head, but everybody's inspired by somebody, if you admit it or not.
I find a lot of times that people will tell you that you're influenced by something or they'll write about your music and say you were influenced by so and so but you've never even heard that person's music, you know.
A: Yeah, yeah.
What do you think of that? I get the idea from what you're doing that you're going off the edge, you know. You're trying to create a whole new thing. In a way, your inspired by the past, but you're trying to get something totally unique and new and fresh, and the minute you think you've finally did it, there's somebody writing and talking about it saying that it sounds like a cross between this and this and that, and it's so frustrating, you know.
A: Yeah, I know. I really hate that. I hate that. But, you know, the writers, they have to compare you with something. There has to be some kind of connection there that people already know. But it's cool. I don't mind people talking about our influences, but I always want to make it clear that it's never a thing about trying to recreate or trying to be a certain person.
To me, I understand it, but it kind of cheapens what you're doing, you know.
A: It does, but at the same time, like when Prince came out, you know, there was the thing where it was like James Brown and Sly Stone. They had to compare him to somebody and you did hear their influences, but…
[BIG BOI GETS PATCHED IN]
BIG BOI: Yo, what up? What's up Beck?
What's going on?
A: Where you at?
BB: I'm on the way to The Dungeon. I had a little car trouble.
Yeah, I want to talk about some cars.
A: Cool.
I myself, I drive a towncar, like a mid-'90s towncar, back when they were square, you know, like a real towncar. The new ones aren't real towncars. They turned them into Toyota's or something.
BB: [Laughs]
People don't understand that the music, especially like the music you're making, and for me, my last record, it's supposed to be listened to in a car like that. You know what I mean?
BB: Yeah, something long. Like a boat. You can float it like a boat.
Something with some solidity and some mass, you know, to be able to vibrate with the music properly, like the weight of the metal makes the music sound a certain way. People don't understand that. What do you ride in?
A: I've got a Toyota Land Cruiser that I'm sticking with. I've got a '56 Ford pick-up truck and a '55 Chevy.
Do you listen to your music in your cars, like when you're writing or recording?
BB: Yeah, yeah. That's the best time.
A: That's where most of our writing comes from, in the car.
I do the same thing. I make the track and then I put it in the car for a couple months and then it marinates and I start getting ideas for melodies.
A: Exactly.
Let's talk about fashion for a second. I think the most apparent similarity between all of you is your tendency towards sporting the dopest, most unique attire, especially during your live shows.
Yeah, I straight come out with pink and with fringes all over the place. As much pink as possible.
A: A lot of people are scared of pink. But really, if you a true player, then you can wear pink.
That's the beautiful thing about the stage, you know, you can wear shit that you can't get away with normally. When you're on stage, you're like an exotic bird or something. People want to see something. It's not a shock value thing, it's an expression thing. It's something that heightens the music.
A: Exactly. It's a whole total experience. We actually have a clothing line that's about to come out, too. We're making the designs ourselves. A lot of people ask us when we get off the stage "Ah man, where can I get that? I want to wear that out in the street".
I love your clothes. You guys have the football helmets.
A: (Laughter) Nah, we ain't fucked with the helmets on yet, but shoulder pads most definitely.
We rock the shoulder pads too. I think we're just sort of operating on a similar plane 'cause we're doing shit independently. Are you guys down with Kool Keith.
A: Oh yeah.
He's got some costumes that he gets into. I think of him as one of those torch bearers.
A: He be wildin' out most definitely.
You know, I've been a big fan of yours for years. Back in '96, me and my band, our favorite album at the time was ATLiens. We listened to it on the bus every night.
A: Really?
Yeah, we loved that shit. I was curious about one thing. It seems like ATLiens is really slow and trippy and pulled back, you know. It's almost like underwater. I noticed that each album gets a little more lively, there's a little more ruckus happening.
A: Well, that's the time. Around the time when ATLiens came out, it was more like some real chill, thought provoking, retrospective, get your thoughts together, try to get your life together, some real righteous type-shit, you know. Right about now, the world wants to party. That's real. And you can't preach to people when they want to party. They don't want to hear that shit.
I'm the same way. My first album is real slow and each album gets a little faster. My last album was pretty hyper. We did songs up to 130 and 140 bpms.
A: Yeeeah.
It got to be where we would start the song fast. We knew the tempo was going to be a certain tempo before the song was even written. For me, just getting on stage, I would feel the energy of the audience and my shit was just too slow. I wanted to explode, you know. I was wondering if you felt a need for that kind of thing because you were feeling it from the audience.
BB: Most definitely. You gonna need some crowd rockers. We was going out and seeing what was going on in the clubs and the clubs was jumpin'. We from the dirty dirty anyway, home of the bass music and that Luke Skywalker and all that, you know what I'm saying, so it was only natural.
A: To tell the truth, when we do shows, the most fun I have on stage is "Bombs Over Baghdad".
You guys made the song of the year, you know, and I just have to give you props and recognition for that. For me, "Bombs over Baghdad", as a song, it's just so of this moment and you hear it coming from other people's vehicles and it's kind of all pervasive and it's the only thing that is totally exciting and original. And it's got that certain indefinable energy.
Were you nervous about releasing that as a single?
BB: The label was.
A: They told us to take the guitars out. We was like "hell, no".
Do you know what they told me?
A: What's that?
The song I was gonna put out was "Nicotine and Gravy" and there were R&B singers singing backup and they were telling me to take the R&B singers out.
BB: Ah, man. They can't do that.
They weren't gonna play it on white radio because there were R&B singers on it, you know. It's the same thing. It's fucking ridiculous. I thought the whole point, you know, was that the two worlds had been segregated musically for way too fucking long. The best period in music was when The Stones were listening to Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf, and Jimi Hendrix was listening to Bob Dylan. There was an exchange, and I think now, in the last five to ten years, it's become progressively more and more separate. And it's just not healthy.
I assume by now, though, that you all have enough power at your labels to have the final say, right?
A: Yeah, you have to get to a point where you kind of prove yourself a little bit, and then once they see that you know what you're talking about, they kind of let you do whatever.
Are you already working on some new shit?
A: Exactly. Right now as we speak. Always stay working. Actually, we've got a lot of songs that didn't make the album…
BB: About thirty.
A: …that we saved, and we gonna do a double album probably next time.
I did the same thing with my last album. We made two records but I didn't want to put out a double record because I don't want to overwhelm people. Songs start to cancel each other out after awhile if there's too many.
A: It's too long of an experience. Then, there was a fad of double albums coming out. We could have made a double album on this album, but we decided not to.
What albums are you all feeling right now?
A: I'm really on that old Son House stuff.
Yeah, that's what I started out with. I started out playing old country and Delta Blues music.
A: You play guitar, right?
Yeah, I play slide guitar. I had a song about seven years ago called "Loser" and the main hook is a slide guitar, sort of like an old Son House, Fred McDowall type thing.
A: How long you been playing guitar?
Since I was about fourteen.
A: Really? Can I ask how old you are now? Tell me the truth, don't tell me no industry lies.
I just turned thirty.
A: Oh, you OG!
This was back in the early '80s, you know, because New Wave was kind of dying out and the hair metal was taking over, so I got into the Delta Blues because the shit was raw and hypnotic. And the thing that I always thought about Son House and Fred McDowall and some of these older Delta country blues musicians was that there was an implied hip-hop beat in their music.
A: I've never heard of Fred McDowall.
I'll send you some CD's, some good shit. The feel of it is hip-hop, but there is no beat there. I think it is very modern music. How did you get into Son House?
A: Because I just started playing guitar about a year ago. And me, being a very big Jimi Hendrix fan, I just kind of saw what his influences were and I wanted to go back and see where he got it from. And that was one of the people, Son House.
And what did you think of that when you heard it?
A: I thought it was real dope. I love his voice, it sounds like my granddaddy. And the simple playing with the guitar. That shit is just raw.
I think I like that music too because it was so much older than anything I knew in my world. In a city where there's strip malls and that sort of thing it was a link to…
[ANNOYING NOISE ON PHONE]
A: Somebody's phone is messing up. Yo, Big!
BB: (long pause) Yo.
A: Whatcha doing boy? You smoking crack?
BB: Nah, listening to you all talk about a dude with a guitar (laughter).
Where do you all picture yourselves ten years from now?
Getting sexy.
BB: Damn, gee! (laughter)
I read that in a James Brown interview. They asked him the same question and he said "getting sexy", but the interview was like from 1979 so ten years later he was in jail. Hopefully he wasn't getting too sexy there.
A: (laughter) Just trying to get built. Nah, ain't no telling, man. I know for a fact, I know how the hip-hop thing go, you won't be able to rap forever. Nobody wants to see an old ass man out there rapping. And that's just true. You'll always be able to make music and songwriting so we're always going to make some kind of expression even if we're not at the forefront, you know.
BB: Even if it be with the clothing line and go out like Ralph Lauren.
So you really don't think any of today's rappers are gonna be out there when they're 80 and still putting it down?
BB: He'd be a damn fool. Yeah, you can be an 80-year-old rapper at heart but I want to see you get your old ass up there and rock a show.
A: A lot of the people who we grew up on, who we loved, who was like the dopest, you know, I don't want to hear them now. That's just real. It's true, they did the best shit ever.
Why do you think they lost that edge?
A: They really don't lose it. It's like a whole time thing. I think the hip-hop thing has got a lot to do with youth and the time, like what's going on.
Yeah, hip-hop is about the current.
BB: Straight up.
I don't know. Maybe that's why I'll just go back to the blues.
A: Well, yeah, you can always sit on the porch, like an old man.
You can play the blues gracefully as an old man.
A: Yeah, and your voice actually gets better as you get older. I can't wait for my voice to sound like Son House.
I used to try to play the blues when I was seventeen but I wasn't rickety enough. I'm approaching it slowly. It's interesting because hip-hop isn't that old. It's gonna be interesting to see it age.
A: Yeah, but there is always going to be the new cats coming up. I can tell you that.
The turnover in hip-hop is unbelievable. There's not a lot of hip-hop that I like anymore, you know.
A: Yeah. It's not that I don't like it, but it's just that it doesn't make me want to go in the studio and do nothing.
Yeah, as far as inspiration.
Is there any hip-hop nowadays that you do draw inspiration from?
A: Rage Against the Machine (laughter). Old Public Enemy. Old N.W.A.
Yeah.
You're just talking old stuff, though.
A: Yeah, I know it. I mean, ain't too much new stuff that really done move me.
What's your favorite N.W.A. album?
A: Niggaz4Life!
BB: Niggaz4Life!
Efil4Zaggin.
(laughter)
That shit's the tightest. I'm surprised because rarely do I hear people prop that record over the others.
No, that was the one.
BB: That's the one.
For me, the people I hang out with, that's the one.
A: You're right, that's the one.
There are some great pop songs on Straight Outta Compton, some great hip-hop moments.
But with Niggaz4Life, you can just put that shit on and the whole album's consistent.
A: Exactly.
You know what I like, Eazy-E's first solo record.
A: Oh, hell yeah. Eazy-Duz-It.
That record really changed a lot for me when it came out.
BB: That was one of my first records that I had and played real loud when my mom wasn't home in my broke ass tape player. That was my first tape.
I still play it. Two hard motherfuckers!
BB: (laughter) Yeah, two hard motherfuckers!
What did he say, "I used to play the drums at Compton High. I used to fuck it up."
A: I'll tell you what you've got to get off into: Too $hort.
Oh yeah, I like Too $hort too.
Which of the twenty albums would you recommend?
A: All them!
BB: You got to get the first five! Shorty the Pimp, Get in Where You Fit In, you got to get all them.
Which one is the "Flat Booty Bitches" one?
BB: That's on The Player Years, it's like a double CD and there's a huge rubber on the cover of the album.
A: You've got to get the early stuff. Him, the 808, one bass line, and him just going off. "Bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, make me rich." (laughter). "Motherfuckin' bitch god damn ass hoe. Cusswords." You got to get that "Cusswords", really.
What's the deal with all these rappers that retire and then have a huge comeback like a year later?
BB: That's like positioning themselves, really, to get more money from the label. The label will give them more if they retire and come back and redo their deal again, it's really a financial thing. They really don't retire because six months later they dropping a new album. But they smiling, though, 'cause they done got paid.
I read one review of Stankonia where the writer said that listening to it was like getting high for the first time all over again. What's the relationship between drugs and your music?
A: I think drugs and music really go together because when you're high, it's like you open, and you might just hear anything. You know, like you might be paying attention to a whole other sound than when you just straight sober. You might be on a whole other groove. Our music is layered so you might hear another sound like five years down the line.
Beck?
For me, you know, different songs are like different drugs. They put me in a different mood. They put me in a different place. I don't necessarily need the drugs to put me into that state, I think the music does it to me all itself.
If Beck was to come to Atlanta, where would you take him to give him a good time?
A: Beck? Really, I'm a homebody. I ain't gonna lie. I really don't get out too much. The only time I get out is when Big Boi done go out and they'll take 'em to the shake club, and they'll all just have a good time.
I heard you have a booty club at your own crib, Big Boi?
BB: It's a minibar, you know, where we go and chill out after the club and do a little after hours thing. Get a little night cap. Get a little back rub or something. You know, go to the steam room and sweat or something. Shit like that.
What makes the south so dirty?
A: Really, it's the same thing that's going on everywhere. I mean, you got your hood, you got your crackheads. The neighborhood will make it dirty. How people act will make it dirty. The thievery, the robbery. That's what make it dirty.
Well, I take my hat off to you.
A: Appreciate it brother.
There is no one, well, I would say in hip-hop or R&B, but I say in almost all music at this point, taking any chances or pushing the envelope, and that's my mission, to try to push things wherever I can. It's beautiful to see someone else taking some chances, you know.
A: Yeah, when I saw you perform, there was one performance, I don't know what it was…
BB: I think it was at an award show. You blew that shit up.
A: …I was like, "yeah! I love him, man. I love that dude." I was like "he's wild". I can't even front like I got all the albums but I'm a tell you one thing, I'm gonna go pick them up. I can tell you that. I just bought the last one you put out. I'm 'bout to go back.
I'm gonna send you a B-side that I did a couple years ago that was very influenced by ATLiens. It's called "Arabian Nights".
A: A'ight. I'm looking forward.
It's my tribute to you, ok.
A: A'ight.
BB: A'ight.
It was great talking with you.
A: Hold it down, man.
I'm gonna check you out when you come to play. I'll come look for you, ok.
Thanks a lot everyone.
A: Ain't no thang.
Keep doing your shit, alright. Don't change any shit.
A: A'ight.
BB: A'ight.

This interview is from September of 2000 (pre-"Pimp My Ride" days). We met in a conference room at Loud Records in Hollywood. After the interview, Xzibit and I smoked a blunt in his ride and listened to his forthcoming album Restless.



First of all, what's your real name and when did you start going by Xzibit?
Well, my real name is Alvin Joiner and I came up with Xzibit when I was in middle school. It was Xzibit A but I changed it to Xzibit because the A sounded kind of corny every time you said it. Back when I named myself Xzibit, it was like everybody was MC this or MC that. MC Lyte, MC Hammer, MC Search, MC, MC, MC, you know what I'm saying. Fuck that. I wanted to be different. Xzibit was tight, especially when I put the X and the Z in it. It had no mystical, magical meaning or whatever.

From what I've heard, your youth was pretty rough. Didn't your mother die when you were really young?
Yup, yup. My mother passed and I had to move out and be involved in a step family arrangement. That didn't go too cool, so I ended up in a group home environment. It was fucked up, man. It wasn't a healthy situation. Nigga got in a group home 'cause I was just rebellin', man. When you're a child it's one thing, but once you start getting hair on your dick, you don't go for all that pushing around and slappin' up shit. Fuck that dude. I got a right hand and it hurt like a motherfucker. So, basically one thing led to another and it had me in a group home environment because my dad didn't want to take control of me. He was like, "He's unruly. Nigga's fuckin' shit up". So, you know, it's like that.

Why did you decide to make the move to Los Angeles?
A couple friends of mine that I was hustlin' with got murdered and got left on the side of the road and shit. It was just not a good time for me, so I knew I had to leave. California was always attractive to me and I ain't ever been out here. I remember the day I came. I had about four thousand dollars with me. I had like four guns. I had an AK, a Glock, a 380, and a 9. And I had a gang of Cross Color outfits (laughter). Remember that shit? And I remember listening to a Kool G Rap CD, and I drove straight to California. The first night my peoples wasn't home so I spent the night at Venice Beach. The next day I paged my peoples and I told him what I was up against, and he was just like, "shit man, chill with me". I remember the dude let me straight stay with him. He let me sleep on his couch. It was real cool.

So when did you first start writing rhymes?
When I was 13 years old. I wasn't allowed to listen to my music in my house because my parents were really religious. They were Jehovah's Witnesses so they didn't like to listen to rap music, but fuck that. So, I was listening under headphones and shit, but when they found out, they just confiscated all my shit. So, I just started writing my own raps and saying them shits. That's how I started.

Do you remember the first rap you ever wrote?
Hell yeah. That shit is called "Down With Me" (laughter). That shit is old school. Down with me/is what you need to be/chillin' and coolin'/if not your just history/living expressionist/and I'm the best at this/I pull you over and then. Oooh. (laughter) That's the shit I started from, man. Basically sticks and stones.

Once in L.A., how did you take your rapping to the next level?
I just met up with a couple of folks that were in the industry, Tha Alkaholiks and King Tee, and I just started rolling with these guys and they showed me the ropes.

And that's when you started seeing rap as a possible career?
Yeah, definitely. I definitely got inspired to do it as a career once I met up with the 'Liks and King Tee. I was always into rappin' and always doing it, but as a profession I didn't know step one how to get started. These guys were the first cats I ever met with a record deal. It was just a great learning experience to watch these guys go bubble from the first single on to the album and then just travelin' with 'em and shit.

Would you say that hooking up with Snoop Dogg for "Bitch Please" was a turning point for you?
It was a big impact on my career. It was a breaking point, actually. It was like people had heard of me, but I needed that little push over into actually being presented to the masses because the vehicle that I was using wasn't really going the distance. Loud Records and the whole way that my shit was being presented, the record sales compared to the interest, wasn't matching up. So that was the first time where none of the obstacles that was holding me back before could hold me back. It was just Xzibit and Snoop out to the masses, and it was kind of like a wake up call for everybody else.

What was your relationship with Snoop previously?
Just being musicians from the same coast, you know, we would bump heads. He came down, called me to the studio and was like "Wanna get on this track? Dre got a track up". He put it up and the bitch was over.

Were you thinking that Dre's album was going to blow up as big as it did?
Man, that's Dr. Dre. I knew it was gonna do some spectacular shit but to see it manifest like that and then the tour come to life, come on man, it's like a storybook ending to this shit. If it had to end (laughter).

When did the Up In Smoke tour end?
I don't know. I'm still on it (laughter). I'm still on the Up In Smoke tour and I got a show in an hour (laughter). Nah, I'm fuckin' with you. It ended last month.

I saw the show in L.A. and up in Seattle. The Seattle show was cool, but the L.A. show, you know was…
Crazy! Motherfuckers was off the hook! I loved that show. I loved that show.

Where was the worst show?
The worst show was in Rochester, New York. That shit sucked. I'm not gonna go into details 'cause I might have to go back there one day, but that show sucked. You all better get it together up there. That's all I got to say. And New Orleans.

They just weren't feeling it?
I don't know what the fuck. I mean, they want Lil' Wayne to come out and bust with Snoop or something? I don't know what the fuck. It just wasn't the same compared to all the other shows we were doing. You all should have got some rest before you came to the show or something (laughter).

When you weren't performing, what else were you up to?
Sleeping, man. We did like 48 shows, man. 48 shows. That shit was no punk.

Did you have your own bus?
Yeah, I had my own bus, my own suites, and a bottle of Hennessy every night. I think I stopped drinking Hennessy because of that tour. I don't even drink like that no more. I have a beer here, a beer there, but…

You just overdid it?
Every night, dog. Every night, niggas did it big.

What, before the show or after?
During the show, after the show, before the show, the day after the show, on the way to the show, leaving the show! When did you not have a glass of Hennessy?

Who would you say was the most up in smoke on the Up In Smoke tour?
Snoop Doggy Dogg! That nigga is the smokiest. He's smokier than Smokey the Bear.

How much are we talking?
Any given day man, we did our thing. Me and Snoop started the Up In Smoke tour (laughter). We was up in smoke everyday. That's my dog, though. He stay up in smoke, you know how he do it.

Are you high right now?
No. I'm not high. I smoked a blunt, but I like to smoke three or four then I'll be right (laughter).

Do you write your rhymes under the influence?
(long sigh) Sometimes. Most of the time. Yeah, basically (laughter). Yup, yup, I can not tell a lie.

Being that blunted on stage, how do you remember all your rhymes?
'Cause I love it, man. I love my music and you don't ever forget shit like that. You forget other shit. You forget speeches but you don't forget lyrics. Plus, when you get in the rhythm, you know what's coming next. It becomes second nature.

What are you most glad you brought with you on the road?
Radios and condoms. And a toothbrush.

You're single?
(long pause) Yeah, I'm single. Fuck it (laughter).

Why'd you hesitate?
'Cause I'm supposed to be seeing somebody, but you know how that go.

Your babymama?
Nah, hell no. Hell no. Me and my babymama ain't tight like that. We cool, though, but it's just like me and her just kind of went there and ain't never came back (laughter). It kind of sucks but we still cool, we talk. Who knows, maybe one day, you know.

Your kid lives with you now?
Nah, he comes back and forth. When I'm in town I grab him and kick it with him. Little Tre-Tre.

With everyone saying that you're about to blow up, are you able to keep your ego in check?
Yeah definitely. It's not about that man. If anybody gets anything from my story, I just want people to realize the hard work and dedication, and how I didn't have to change up and start dancing and taking my clothes off and shit like some other motherfuckers do. It's not for me to point fingers, but I paid dues and I came up the real old school way, paying dues and just making shit crack as an MC. Fuck an ego. That shit could be over tomorrow and then you'll just be an asshole. What good is money and fame if you're not even respected? I have no problem being Alvin Joiner. Some people can't ever take their rap persona off. Nobody gives a fuck about all that. Especially me. I like to see through fake niggers like the Sixth Sense (laughter).

How is your life going to change if the album does blow up?
It won't change my attitude toward life in general, but it will definitely open my eyes to some new things and a somewhat comfortable lifestyle. I won't have to worry about my lights gonna get cut off or whatever, but I don't see how having money is gonna change me. I'm not looking forward to "Oh, I'm gonna be rich", I'm just looking forward to being heard. You can't put no dollar amount on this.

Were you at the Source Awards?
Yeah. The nigger awards. The Compton awards. That shit was bullshit. Bullshit people involved. Bullshit agendas. Bullshit. No offense to the Source, but come on dude, when you can walk into a facility with metal detectors and everybody go off but nobody get stopped, what kind of shit is that? What the fuck you got metal detectors for? I mean, me and five people walked directly through the metal detectors and everybody went off. Two of us did have guns, but I mean, come on. Nobody checked us. I mean, if we can come in here and we're the good guys (laughter). It did not make sense whatsoever.

A few last questions: inside and outside of hip-hop, who would you say are your favorite performers of all time?
Outside of hip-hop, the lead singer of the Black Crowes. That nigga could get down. And James Brown. Inside of rap, it would probably have to be Busta Rhymes.

What are your favorite rap albums of all time?
Public Enemy Fear of a Black Planet, Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth Mecca and the Soul Brother, N.W.A. Straight Outta Compton, and Ice Cube AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted.

Are you a spiritual man?
Yeah, definitely. A very god-fearing individual, but I don't go to church. I don't believe in organized religion. Fuck that. But I pray everyday, make sure I give thanks for waking up in the morning. I feel like if you a god-fearing person and you live according to what feels right as a man, you know, don't steal shit, don't kill nobody, don't fuck nobody, don't fuck nobody's wife. All that shit, it ain't cool. Some people call it karma, I just call it being a real motherfucker. I don't believe in all that extraterrestrial shit, you know. Just let me do right what feels right, and I feel like I'm doing the right thing.

Have you ever seen Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory?
Nope. I heard about it. Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? Is that like a porno or something?

You have no idea what it is?
No idea. I heard about it, but is it like Deep Throat or something (laughter)?

Nah, it's a kids movie.
Oh. Well fuck 'em (laughter). Some Mary Poppins-type shit?

Basically.
I'm cool. Let's go smoke something.

It's on.

In May of 2001, I met with Chad Hugo and Pharrell Williams in the lobby of a hotel in Beverly Hills. They were promoting the upcoming release of In Search Of…, the debut album by their pseudonym, N.E.R.D.



Cheeba: The two of you met in middle school concert band, right?
Chad: Yeah. First and foremost, we'll always be musicians. We played together in a jazz improv class.

What were your instruments?
C: Sax.
Pharrell: Percussion. In concert band it was snare and in marching band I was bass cabinet.

When I was in school, you could rate someone's level of nerdiness by how many years they stayed in band.
P: [laughs] But there were cool people in band where we're from. You were lucky to make it in band. We had top instructors. It was real disciplined, with push-ups and laps when you fucked up. But at the end of the day, we were soldiers on that field.

Nevertheless, I've read that you pride yourselves on having been nerds in school.
P: We were just unique guys, different than everybody else.
C: People look at nerds as people who think about shit, and that's kind of how we applied the N.E.R.D. concept. But we're not like nerds with pocket protectors and shit.
P: Not with broken glasses and all that shit.

What are you in search of?
P: It's not us. That's the thing. The album is for everybody else. We want you to listen to this album and hopefully you'll find whatever it is you're looking for. If not, you find the first clue to your heart's treasure map.
C: And if you ain't looking for nothing, then that's all good too, because there's some shit on there that's fun.

What would you say was your biggest breakthrough as producers?
P: Every step counts. That's like saying, "what was your best step in life". And you think, "it was when I was on stage with Michael Jackson doing the moonwalk", but actually your best step was your first step, 'cause it didn't have to happen. It's a beautiful feeling knowing that one small thing turned into something huge. If you would have told us seven or eight years ago, when we were in high school, that we'd be in California, in some cool hotel, with loads of money, we would have never believed it. God has been good to us and so have the people.

What's your perspective on death?
P: All of your loved ones go to another place but they don't necessarily go away forever. You'll meet up with them again. No one ever really dies.

What do your parents do?
C: My mother's a medical technologist. We come from middle class families.
P: My pops is a retired house painter. And my mom still teaches but she's gonna retire soon.

What does she teach?
P: Junior high, but I'm gonna make her quit, though.

Because the schools aren't safe anymore?
P: Nah, Virginia's cool. It ain't nothing like that. That shit right there is a whole new issue.

[Willem Dafoe walks by table]

P: Hey, that's the guy that was in The Last Temptation! That movie was the illest. I told him that a million times, like, "Yo! That movie is the best movie!" The dude was playing Jesus.

What were you just about to say about schools?
P: Kids shooting up schools and shit. Man, that's parents not really supervising their children and their intake.

Have either of you dropped your seed yet?
C: I've got two kids. A son that's three and my daughter is one.
P: It's amazing how he is three, man. It seems like yesterday he was born.

You don't have any kids, Pharrell?
P: Nah, I don't even have a girlfriend. I can't wait to get one. I'm sick of this shit.

None of the girls from your "Lapdance" video?
P: Nah. I got girls, but man, I want a girlfriend. Somebody I can be monogamous with, just one on one.

You've had that before?
P: Yeah, it was great, but shit was moving so fast. So many girls, I just couldn't help it. But now, I know better.

So you think it would be easier now to have that kind of relationship?
P: Yeah, 'cause you got so much to look forward to. When you working, you can say, "Damn, I'm gonna go home to my wife!". I don't have that right now. Right now, I say, "Damn, I'm gonna meet this girl at my house and fuck." That shit is boring. I cut down a whole lot. Now's it's just like one or two here and there.

At a time?
P: It's been awhile. I'm kind of sick of that shit too.

What's your favorite track to get a lapdance to?
P: I don't like lapdances. Hell no. I'm not trying to do nothing in my jeans. It's a waste of time.

Where did you wrangle all the women for the "Lapdance" video?
P: Those are all porn stars.

How was that shoot?
P: Crazy as hell [chuckle].
C: I thought the video could have had a little more political shit in it.
P: We were gonna do that! We were gonna do that in the new edition, but Virgin just wanted to do a re-edit. We were gonna have a whole bunch of strippers in Bush masks.
C: The "Lapdance" song has nothing to do with lapdances.

A lot of your songs shouldn't be taken at face value.
P: At all. It's not the surface of the lake, it's the bottom of the ocean.

If you were on a desert island and could only have one artist's music, who would it be?
P: Oh, shit! I don't know, brother. Stevie Wonder, Donny Hathaway, or Michael Jackson.

If you were on a desert island and could have only one drug, what would it be?
P: Love.

When can we expect to hear Nate Dogg sing the chorus on one of your tracks?
P: [laughs] I don't know. Whenever it comes up, I guess.
C: That shit might be dope.
P: I know it would be dope.
C: Never thought about it, though.
P: See, a track will be alright, and then that nigga get on it and take it to a whole new level. He needs to do some Bill Withers shit. I'm gonna tell him that when I meet him, he's the gangsta Bill Withers.

Anything else you want to say?
P: Let's evaluate the homeless situation, the impoverished families.
C: Buckle up for safety.

The Brothers Gonna Work It Out
By Tyson Lynn

Deep in the heart of Georgetown, two brothers - Aja West and Cheeba - are working out the world's funkiest riff. They've got hours of samples to edit down into a deep, silken pocket. These are the men of the Mackrosoft and the Cheebacabra, a charmed duo that produces some of Seattle's finest cuts with some of the Northwest's and the nation's finest players.

"There was a generation of musicians that were all into funky jazz," says West over the background chatter of their neighborhood bar. "I connected with a lot of them while I was working a bunch of temp jobs in Seattle. They'd come over, and I'd sample them. And then when that blew up, when hip-hop became more mainstream, they realized how cool that really was, that funk fusion."

It took some time for the rest of the music world to catch up. In the interim, West worked for Conan O'Brien as a music assistant, occasionally starring in a sketch (remember the wet-suited man in a big bowl of chili?). Cheeba toiled for the Dust Brothers, producing albums for Beck and Santana.

"We've always done our separate projects, but we've always been close," says Cheeba. "The first thing we did together was a remix for the Fight Club soundtrack that only appeared on the European and Japanese versions of the soundtrack."

"When that came out," adds West, "we ended up with a cult-like fan base." These same fans occasionally become part of the Mackrosoft collective, performing on multiple releases documenting the brothers' love of tight, elliptical funk and instrumental hip-hop. Take, for example, the pairs newest albums: the Mackrosoft's "Antonio's Giraffe" and the Cheebacabra's "Exile In The Woods", which feature guests as diverse as Money Mark (Beastie Boys), Mike Clark (Herbie Hancock's Headhunters), and Peter Scherr (Honk Kong Philharmonic Orchestra).

"Happy accidents are responsible for large portions of our albums. Someone will say to us, I'd love to get on your album, and we're like, 'Come on over, throw something down'," says West. "Or someone at a party says, 'I play cello but could never play on your records'. Thats the person you hire.

"At one of our release parties, our horn section ended up meeting each other for the first time," Cheeba chimes in. "Seattle just has a bunch of really down-to-earth people who are looking to play on interesting projects."

And its one of these first interesting projects that ends our conversation as the waitress announces last call.

"I was in high school, and I heard Reggie Watts on the radio. It was amazing, so I called him up," West says. "We were cold-calling people, salesmen for the funk." And, you might easily argue, they still are.