Excerpt from chapter 7, Encore:

Tyner continued to work within the Detroit rock community, mentoring young musicians as a producer and promoter. In the wake of revived interest in the 5, he released a hard-rocking 1990 CD titled Blood Brothers. The next year, he died of a heart attack at the age of 46.

Following the breakup of the 5, Smith picked up the pieces by joining forces with other Motor City rock veterans in Sonic's Rendezvous band - an uncompromisingly loud, aggressive guerilla attack (documented through the release of an underground classic of a single, "City Slang")....

The guitarist subsequently achieved the highest-profile of any of the 5 through his marriage to punk priestess Patti Smith.... the two were introduced by Lenny Kaye, who'd jumped from the pages of Rolling Stone to the stage as the Patti Smith Group's guitarist. Though Smith and Smith subsequently spent much of their time together away from the spotlight, raising a family in Michigan, Sonic became Patti's musical inspiration (most obviously on "Frederick" and the entire Dream Of Life collaborative CD) and creative partner.

Three years after Tyner, Sonic Smith died in 1994, of heart failure, at the age of 45.

It was a tragedy that two artists whose music had so much heart should die so young of heart problems. But it was a blessing at least that fans would be spared the possibility of an MC5 reunion. It would have been unthinkable to see this band reduced to an exercise in middle-age nostalgia, with five musicians who no longer had much in the way of common bonds huffing and puffing away through the radical rhetoric of the late 60's, straining to simulate the high energy that had surged through their reckless youth. thousands of diehards cherished their memories of the most killer live band they would ever experience, but the rest of rock would know the MC5 mainly by reputation -- a reputation that has continued to grow.

It appeared that the band would be given an epitaph befitting its reputation with the scheduled release in spring 2004 of a two-hour documentary, MC5: A True Testimonial. Mainly narrated by Kramer and mixing archival footage with interviews with most of the principal players (including Sinclair and Landau), it comes closer to capturing the explosive madness of that musical era than memory ever could. During more than six years of research and shooting, Chicago filmmakers David C. Thomas and Laurel Legler enjoyed full cooperation from the three surviving five and imbued the project with the labor-of-love devotion the band deserves.

A New York Times review by Elvis Mitchell on the eve of release (April 23, 2004) heralded the film as a "riveting, all-elbows-and-knuckles documentary" about a band committed to "delivering bodyblows to the dozing status quo." Unfortunately for fans of the band and music lovers in general, a dispute between Wayne Kramer and the filmmakers over musical rights blocked the release at the last minute, with no sign of a resolution a year later. Kramer claimed the filmmakers had reneged on a promise that he would produce a companion soundtrack that would feature contemporary bands receiving the 5's material.

The dispute drew blood from wounds that had never completely healed, with Tyner's widow Rebecca Derminer (also featured in the movie) taking the side of the filmmakers and Patti Smith and son Jackson expressing resentment toward Kramer as well. The band's legacy was very much the legacy of these two men, a legacy honored by the film that a squabble over money would suppress.

"It's a travesty that it would be blocked," Jackson Smith, himself a fledging musician, told Susan Whitall of the Detroit News. "It's a great document of the band, it's a great document of life, and it's a great document of things... far and beyond the band" ("MC5 in turmoil again," March 31, 2004).

Antagonism intensified with Kramer's release that summer of a concert DVD titled A Sonic Revolution: A Celebration of the MC5. Though Kramer was very careful to avoid billing this as a "reunion" -- as unthinkable without Rob and Sonic as a Beatles' reunion would be without John and George -- but a "celebration." Kramer regrouped the rhythm section of Davis and and Thompson and recruited a motley array of British 5 fanatics -- Motorhead's Lemmy, the Cult's Ian Astbury, the Damned's Dave Vanian -- to front the band and say nice things about the 5.

Ironically, it was the 5's emergence as a fashion symbol that provided funding for the project. Levi's had appropriated the band's logo to promote a line of vintage wear, without obtaining the clearance that Kramer felt was his to grant. The company settled by agreeing to subsidize a free show at London's small, sweaty 100 Club, a concert that could be shot and sold as a documentary. Some charged that Kramer didn't want a project from which he would profit to compete with a documentary in which he had no financial stake, though the guitarist insisted that the True Testimonial filmmakers had only themselves to blame for failing to fulfill their agreement.

While both documentaries share some archival footage, Sonic Revolution falls well short of the scope, impact and significance of A True Testimonial. Kramer then compounded the insult, in the eyes of the survivors of his late band mates, by launching a club tour of the States with Davis and Thompson as DTK/MC5. Fronting the band, as if selected by random lottery, were pretty boy Evan Dando, popster Marshall Crenshaw (Detroit native who had long prized the 5 and covered their material) and Mudhoney's Mark Arm.

For DTK/MC5 to provide the last gasp of the MC5 would leave an aftertaste as bitter as that breakup New Year's Eve show. Whatever the legalities surrounding the A True Testimonial, the legacy of this revolutionary band should be a higher priority for all involved than profit potential and dueling lawsuits. For all enmity, entrenchment and legal maneuverings of rival camps, music so extraordinary that it transformed the lives of all who experienced it demands the release of a documentary that does the MC5 justice.

Few bands have ever seen so much go so wrong so quickly and have been so misunderstood in the process. A True Testimonial represents a belated opportunity to set things straight, put things right. The fans deserve it. So does the band. And so does the music.

This interview was conducted in Toronto, September 2002, as the MC5 - A True Testimonial documentary began a year-long tour of film festivals, including several SRO screenings at the Toronto International Film Festival. It was broadcast on Detroit's public radio station, WDET-FM, as part of the Ralph Valdez program.


Ralph Valdez: This is WDET FM Detroit Public Radio; I'm Ralph Valdez and I'm very happy to be speaking to the director of a new documentary about the MC5. A True Testimonial is what it's called and I'm here with David C Thomas. Hello, David.

David Thomas: Hi Ralph, nice to be with you today.

Ralph Valdez: Thank you so much. The film is a love letter of sorts to the fans of the music of the MC5, to music in general and to the MC5 themselves. Can you tell us how important it was to you to make this film?

David Thomas: It was very important. After a whole series of events we came to believe that it was our purpose here on the planet, much like JC Crawford says in that famous intro. But we really did come to believe that and you know, we felt like the MC5 unfortunately was seeming to slip out of the lexicon of rock music in general.

I've been a record freak and musician and rock nut for all my life and it's an integral part of my world view and it was as you said, it is a bit of a love letter, I think we, we never wanted to do dirt on the band or do anything like that but we really wanted this to be a testimonial to the MC5.

We, of course, cover all aspects of the story and we didn't want to pull any punches because there's good and bad to it.

But we really wanted to celebrate the MC5.

Ralph Valdez: And you do that so well in the film and it does avoid some of those behind the scenes VH-1 type of cliches because there's a real tenderness to the film and you really get so close to the heart of the subject of the film, the five guys from Detroit: Rob Tyner, Fred "Sonic" Smith, Wayne Kramer, Michael Davis, Dennis Thompson.

I mean very important musicians and artists; socially politically historically musically in so many ways, to not only Detroit but to the course of music. And I think their impact is so profound; I mean you see them in so many groups today that have been influenced by them, that maybe don't even sound like them but their look...

But the impact that they've had also extends beyond music and what you capture in the film has that quality as well. As I was saying, the things, some of the things that are so great about this documentary are that you do avoid these sort of "Behind The Music" digging up the dirt kind of cliches because the band themselves reveal the sad and the low points themselves in a real, almost heart breaking way. Was that hard to get to with the band?

David Thomas: It took a lot of work. Nobody really likes to reveal their darkest moments. And we took a long time establishing a rapport with all of the people that are in the film, we took a long time gaining their trust and then in some cases, for instance in Wayne Kramer's, in the instance of Wayne, we spent six solid days shooting with Wayne in Detroit and I think people sometimes...

Wayne's very good at sort of telling the story, he's told the story a lot. And Wayne's great for the sound byte but we really wanted to get to that point where we got, you know really got down to the heart of the matter where he really revealed his true feelings. And I think he does that in the film, as well as everybody else. I think they were ready to, I think that was a big part of it. I think they wanted to maybe let go of some of that baggage and begin the healing process or continue the healing process for themselves.

Ralph Valdez: Dennis Thompson, can you talk a little about him, his being here in Toronto, how that came about and are you guys real close after working on this film for that long? How long has the film been in the works, by the way?

David Thomas: We started this project in 1995, so it's been seven years in the making. The idea was originally presented by my partner, wife and producer, Laurel Legler. She came to me and said "Hey, how about an MC5 film?" And I mean, I honestly at the time thought, "well that will be way too much work, it'll take way too long, and I don't know frankly how much stuff is out there"...

I knew there were some things, you know, that had made the sort of collector's circuit, but once we started digging, you know, we tapped into a really deep vein of materials. It's hard to have a relationship, both a working and personal relationship with somebody for seven years and not gain sort of a rapport and a friendship. And, we have deep friendships with all the people who are in the film now....

Ralph Valdez: It never feels exploitive in the film, it feels very genuine and you let them speak...

David Thomas: Yeah, well, I really, I think I was coming from a place of really caring about these guys, and caring about what happened to them. You know, I think often times, bands, musicians, celebrities, you know they kind of become, we become distanced from them in a sense. While we embrace them as celebrities, we become distanced from them as people; they become icons or legends and they take on an unreal character.

The truth of it is, they're people and they're fragile. That's not to say the MC5 were fragile, by any means, but you know what I mean. They're human...

Ralph Valdez: Yeah, they have all the qualities of humans that we sometimes forget about when we put people on pedestals as rock stars or whatever.

David Thomas: Absolutely. And we cared about these guys, we cared about them. And we care about what happens to them today, you know we cared about what happened to them then. You know, I think that that was part of what we wanted to do with this film. We'd like the world to care about these guys.

These guys were very, very important, not just to Detroit, but to the whole world musically, to the past 30 years of rock music. They're very, very, very important people, and up to now, obscenely overlooked.

Ralph Valdez: You know, you captured so much of their personalities, not just through the music, but the people that they are in this film. Dennis Thompson just really struck me as someone who's almost scary in certain ways, but they all have these really tough, but lovable qualities that you've really been able to capture without milking it or exploiting it in any way.

But I was pleasantly surprised to see Dennis Thompson, the drummer for the MC5, there at the show last night, um, and just curious as to how he's taking this, and other remaining members of the band, are they pretty thrilled about this whole thing?

David Thomas: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Dennis was the only one who was able to make this particular trip for these screenings; Becky Tyner was here as well. But all of the three surviving band members and extended families of the band have all seen the film.

We had a cast and crew screening in Chicago, back in April, that was specifically for people that had worked on it. It wasn't really a public screening, but we wanted to make sure that we brought all those people together who had worked on the film, from the sound people, to the music mixing people, to the people who are in the film, we wanted to make sure to bring them all together.

And everybody's been absolutely thrilled with the end product.

They are really amazing people. I don't think that - the MC5 were an amazing band, and it was an amazing, extended family of people, with the Trans-Love folks and the White Panther Party and all that, I mean all the people involved were pretty amazing individuals. And I think that comes across in the film, hopefully.

I think it does, it seems to, that seems to be the reaction of most people. I think it means a lot to them. You know, I think it means a lot.

I think some of that anger that we see, particularly in Dennis' character in the film, I think he displays that perhaps more readily than the others do. Some of that anger comes from the fact that they have been so overlooked, that they have seemingly been forgotten, people have forgotten how important they really were.

Ralph Valdez: And there's a lot of poignancy to the film, there's one thing in particular that Rob Tyner's widow, Becky Tyner, says, I think it's her that says, that they were very righteous and continued to be through their early years, just this really defiant, politically, socially, musically defiant group, that just sort of got beaten down. I think there's a lesson in there for everyone in whatever their walk of life.

There's a certain poignancy to that, that I think resonates with the audience. And when she says that, you realize, yes, this band had so much to say and so much to offer, and they, not even so much through their own devices, but because of the times they were in, were really beaten down in some ways that kept them from making it to the very top of where they could have been. Not even in terms of commercial success, but just in their impact.

David Thomas: I agree completely, they really... the message, their message, in 1968 and 1969, in that period of America, was not a message that the establishment wanted to hear. And that resulted in censorship and dropped by the label, and as you said, yeah, they got beaten down a lot.

And I think, I think the other thing, one of the things we were trying to say with this film as well, things haven't changed so much! You know, those killer forces of capitalism that John Sinclair talked about in his liner notes back in 1968, those killer forces, they're not only still here, they're stronger than ever. And for the voices of ...

Ralph Valdez: Dissension?

David Thomas: Dissension, in America, are time and time again, squashed, and censored. And I think that as a culture and as a nation, I think we're really in danger of those killer forces of capitalism completely obliterating the humanistic, righteous, spiritual, people power.. and

Ralph Valdez: Exactly...

David Thomas: And you know, that was what the MC5 was saying 30 years ago. And I think that message is still there. I think this is a story that people not only want, but I think this is a story that people need, people need to know about this.

Ralph Valdez: Yeah, I agree completely, I think that not only is it a record or document of an important group, socially, politically, historically, and musically, but it's also an inspiring film for people, who need to know that there is, that it's important to fight back and to agitate and to make things happen for yourself and for the world you live in.

And whether the odds are against you or not, it's important to step up, and I think your film shows that so well through this group, and I think it is inspiring, and I hope that people who get to see it feel that, and I'm sure that they will walk away with that.

David Thomas: There is, if I could just say one other thing about that, I think there is a price to pay. The MC5 paid a high price for the message that they brought. At the same time, the idea that you can change the world through art, or through music, or through rock and roll, may, on the surface... we're told time and time again, "oh, you can't change the world, it's just rock and roll, it's just music". You know, anything with a political message, forget it.

The truth of it is, the MC5 DID change the world with their music. They affected the entire lineage of everything that came after them. You know, there never would have been perhaps, a New York Dolls, there never would have been perhaps a Sex Pistols, or a Clash, or the...

Ralph Valdez: Stooges...

David Thomas: Stooges, even, of course. Right, all of those things. They deeply affected the music that came after them. And in that sense, they did change the world.

Ralph Valdez: Yeah, they truly did. At just over two hours in length, your film seems to really pack in a lot, and does it very well. There must have been so much that you had to leave out.

Was there anything you regretted, that you couldn't put in there? It must have been... how much footage did you actually record for this film?

David Thomas: The final, with the interviews that we did, and the archival material, we had over 120 hours of material, all of which was, as you say, edited down to 2 hours. So yeah, there was a lot of stuff that couldn't end up in the film. Even right up to the last minute we were, as of a month and a half ago, we were at 2 hours and 15 minutes, and we needed to bring it down to that 2 hour mark. Because we are trying to bring this film to market, and you know, there are limitations to the market place, it?s always a....

Ralph Valdez: Consideration...

David Thomas: Yeah, art versus commerce, it's the same old story. So, yeah, there are things that were heartbreaking to lose in this final cut. Our plans are to secure distribution, theatrical distribution, and also to eventually release a DVD.

Of course, a lot of those materials will be the bonus items on the DVD. There's a lot of other great stuff that's not in the film, it's really....

These are amazing people, it's an amazing story, you know, we've told people we could probably cut a whole other film that would be just about as strong as this, just out of the outtakes, some really amazing stuff and some wonderful stories that just had to be left behind because of the limitations of time...

Ralph Valdez: Thank you very much, Dave Thomas, for talking to us about MC5 - A True Testimonial. Before I let you go, though, are there any plans for distribution of this film in the United States?

David Thomas: Well, that's what we're working on right now, that's part of the reason we're here at the Toronto International Film Festival is to try to get that business part of this plan rolling. A lot of distributors are here in town for screenings, we're getting real good feedback now. I don't have anything definite to report at this point.

Certainly, one of our great hopes for this film has always been that the film actually has its commercial premiere in Detroit. There could be nothing more right than that and that's of course what we hope to do. It may be awhile yet until we actually secure distribution, but things are looking really good.

Ralph Valdez: Thanks again, Dave Thomas. This is WDET-FM, Detroit Public Radio.