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at one point last year my friend j and i were going to start this
magazine of interviews with various people, mostly ones who don't often
get interviewed, it was going to be called "jag", the idea was we'd ask
these people to talk about things they were excited or knowledgeable
about, and we'd print the interviews mostly verbatim, editing for
thematic coherence but not for grammar. but the magazine never got off
the ground and the other day j asked if i minded if he posted some of
the interviews he'd done on his excellent blog. so i said ok but i'm
doing it too. so here's one of them, it's an interview with my
maternal grandma lauraine and her good friend irene, somehow i feel
like i shouldn't print their full names on the internet, i'm sure they
wouldn't mind, but it seems impure somehow, anyway ENJOY:
Lauraine was born in 1925 on Staten Island, NY. Irene was born in 1920 in Roxbury, MA.
CHILDHOOD L:
We were very fortunate in that my father had a job all during the
Depression and we had a car. We were one of the few people in our
neighborhood that had a car. My mother, for years, was the only woman
in our neighborhood who drove. And the other person who drove,
beginning at age sixteen, was my sister Harriet—she didn’t have a
license but she drove-- and the second car that my father bought was a
huge Packard with pull-out seats, and he got it for very little money
because someone lost their money and they needed the cash and so my
father bought that car in 1933—a Packard. And at age sixteen the word
would go out that my sister was going to the beach. All the children
came, got in the car, and she would drive “like h---” down this highway
that had been built in the thirties, the WPA-- no cars on it ‘cause
most people couldn’t afford a car. One child was always the lookout,
so if there were any police cars… We used to have ten, twelve children
in the car! And so that was our summer entertainment… At nighttime,
in the summer, across the street from us was a streetlight and all the
young people would congregate there—boys up until probably the age of
seventeen, eighteen, when maybe they had jobs, we played street games,
hiding games, “ring-a-livio”, and I’ve forgotten some of the others.
And the whole neighborhood, maybe eighteen or twenty kids-- ME: You would just converge in the street? L:
--and we’d decide what the game was and have teams, and of course as
one of the younger kids that was always something to be chosen,
finally, to be part of a team. And that was how we entertained-- ME: You mean you’d have two captains and they’d choose people for their teams? L:
Yeah, and then one team would go out and hide, or, depending on what
the rules of that particular game were, against the other team… …There
were two ponds where we went ice-skating. You had to walk, one of them
was certainly two miles away, and the other a mile, but you’d always
have someone to go with, you’d always take a raw potato with you,
someone would start a fire on the banks of the pond, and you’d put your
potato in there and while you’re ice skating it was roasting and then
just before you got to go home you’d pull your potato out and you’d
warm up your hands and you’d break it open and of course it tasted
delicious, didn’t have butter or salt or anything, and you’d eat that
and walk home with warm hands and it didn’t cost a penny. And then
they built two municipal swimming pools, both within a bus ride, a
nickel bus ride, for me. One of them I preferred to go to because the
boys who went to that one were of more interest to me, and occasionally
we would decide instead of taking the bus home for a nickel, we would
buy a hot dog for a nickel, and then we’d have a two to three mile walk
home. I: You didn’t know any different. We didn’t know any different. L: That’s right. And it’d be a whole group, we’d all decide, are we gonna walk home today, are we gonna buy a hot dog…? I:
…I think I walked to school, starting with kindergarten, no buses, no
mummy-by-the-hand, and we crossed a big street, I think it must have
been more than a mile walking to grade school… And when we got older
and could ride the subway—it was also a nickel or a dime—we went into
Boston, into the city, and Cab Calloway and all of the big name bands
were on the stage, and you’d pay your admission, and you could stay
there all day, if you went out and bought a candy bar, and then the
next bunch came in, you could sit there, you could see two or three
shows, I guess two maybe was the maximum… L: … I never went to New
York, but some of my friends did, to see Frankie-- Frank Sinatra—I
never went, Frankie didn’t appeal to me for some reason. But my
girlfriends would go. It would cost a nickel on the bus, a nickel on
the ferry and a nickel on the subway and then I don’t know what it cost
to go— I: Probably a quarter. To this day I can tell you,
unqualifiedly, he is, to me-- there’s nobody that touches him. And I
listen now a lot and I can explain it by saying: he caresses each
word. When he says “love”, my god! To this day-- I’ve got a lot of
records, and there’s other good singers, Mel Tome, a lot of guys-- but
to me, he represents the best… And you would swear that he is trying
to seduce YOU. That when he’s saying, “hey, baby,” it’s YOU and nobody
else.
DANCING I: On Friday nights… we must have been-- boys
and girls-- ten kids that would gather in somebody’s house and dance.
We learned how to dance to the radio. And that was Friday night! It
would be like dating, but it wasn’t dating, it wasn’t one-on-one. We
were a bunch of kids, and we’d pair up, and we’d dance. I must have
been twelve because by the time I met Lewis I was fifteen and, you
know, I had been around, with boys, he wasn’t my first... L: …I met
George at a freshman dance at Cornell. He had never gone to a dance
before, but both of his roommates were going. He was a good dancer
already. I don’t know where he learned to dance, ‘cause he never
really dated. But… people learned to dance, then… I mean, everyone
seemed to dance. I: Yeah, Lewis danced. ME: You learned dance steps? I: Well, until the jitterbug, it was foxtrot or waltz. And polka! But I never had the energy to do the polka. Lewis did. L: But dancing was, in the thirties, popular. I: Dancing was MUCH sexier then than it is now. You were close— L: That’s right! I:
--you were cheek-to-cheek, you could whisper little nothings in the
ear, and it was yummy. It was a heck of a lot, you know, not better,
but different than it is today. L: And maybe that’s why guys were more apt to learn to dance, ‘cause you couldn’t jump into bed. I: That’s right. ME: It was the next best thing? I: A vicarious thrill…
MAKING DO L:
When we first were married, if George and I wanted to go to the movies,
we had to scour the neighborhood for bottles. Bottles had a two-cent
deposit, and we would pick up enough bottles for ten cents each to go
the movies. See, there was a big push then… it was right after the war
and so a lot of GIs were back in school and apartments were scarce, we
paid forty-five dollars a month for our apartment and our income was
ninety dollars a month, so almost fifty percent of our income went to-- I:
Lewis’s older brother-- we were struggling, and could hardly make ends
meet-- and Jack came over one night and said, “I’m gonna show you kids
how to do this, I’m gonna fix you a budget.” So we wrote down--
nothing like movies or anything-- we wrote down the payment to the bank
for the mortgage, and the oil, and the electricity, and I don’t
remember, whatever the necessities were for living. So those things
all came to two hundred dollars, and we were making a hundred dollars!
There’s no way in hell you can budget-- it wasn’t a question of doing
without a dress, or a lobster, or anything-- the money wasn’t there… ME:
[Lauraine] was saying in the car on the way over that she has love
letters that her father wrote to her mother and that in order to save
paper he would write from top to bottom and then turn the page sideways
and write horizontally the other direction over the other writing to
save paper. I’m curious what kinds of things were scarce during this
time? L: Well of course, we were married, and you were too, during the war. Butter and sugar, a lot of things were rationed-- I: Gasoline, meat-- L: Meat, yes-- ME: How much meat could you have? L: We had meat maybe once a week. I:
We had stamps that, we were given books of stamps, and if I knew Lewis
was coming home on leave I would save up, ‘cause I knew he liked
butter, and he liked meat and all that, and sugar… …To this day, I
don’t waste a glass of water… Now I have a well-- it used to be I was
taking from our own can-- but now I have a well, so I take pitchers of
water up to guests or if I have water from the sink I use it to water
the plants on the back porch. I don’t use paper napkins hardly at
all. I don’t care how many of these (gestures) I use because they go
in the machine and then I may or may not iron them. I’m trying to
think in terms of making do… Even for myself now, if I cook a chicken
Friday night, boy, that goes a long way, I’ll get another dinner out of
it, and I’ll get a sandwich when I go to Neat Repeats, and I’ll get a
little bit for a salad, so a chicken or a package of thighs that costs
me two dollars, whew, I get a lot of mileage out of that-- ME: Do you use the giblets and the neck? I:
I save that for soup. I save all that and when I’m ready to cook a
chicken soup… Did you ever meet that gal R....? She was eating my
chicken soup and she said, “My, this is very nice chicken soup.” And I
said, “Thank you.” She said, “You know, no matter how long I cook it,
it doesn’t get this good.” I said to her, “R., it isn’t how long you
cook it, you’ve got to have a certain ratio of the chicken to the
water. You put in three legs and a wing and fill the pot this high
with water, you can cook it till doomsday and it’s not going to get
strong, you know!” But that stuck in my mind, she just thought, the
longer she cooked it, the stronger it was going to get, but it doesn’t
work that way… So I save the giblets, and even if I roast the chicken I
take this part of the wing off, this little thing, and throw that in
with the giblets, ‘cause there’s no meat on it… ME: What about the carcass? I:
The carcass, I don’t do it, but some people save that also, and that
goes for stock, chicken stock. You just make a big pot of stock and
you don’t buy broth in a can, you just use your own, you can freeze it
in ice cubes, in ice-cube trays, and just use two or three… But for
chicken soup, well you can’t do it from just chicken bones, you have to
put the bones in with a whole big nice chicken. You can make stock, or
broth, with an onion and a carrot and some celery and simmer it down
and get a broth, but in terms of a good strong chicken soup you have to
have a good ratio of the meat to a small amount of liquid…
CHILDBIRTH I:
Yesterday was Freddy’s birthday—our Freddy—and her very dear friend
called me and said, “What were you doing on this day sixty-something
years ago?” I said, “I remember very well what I was doing.” I was
living with Lewis’s mother at the seashore, and I knew I had to come
in, I guess my water broke, so Lewis’s sister, who had never had
children, drove me to our house in Mattapan, and I washed the kitchen
floor at about ten o’clock in the morning! And then we each went down
to the delicatessen for a corned-beef sandwich. Nobody today would
think of eating a corned-beef sandwich before she gave birth! So we go
to the hospital, she drives me to the hospital, and I walk up to the
desk, and the receptionist says, “Yes, can I help you?” Selma almost
punched her in the nose! She said, “She’s having a baby!” You
couldn’t tell, I really wasn’t sticky-out-y, I was small. And when the
baby was born, in those days there were not enough cribs, it was
wartime, so they used dresser drawers, (gestures) this one, and this
one; Freddy was in a dresser drawer! And only the husband could come
and visit, because they couldn’t handle company, and flowers, and all
of that, so every day, for about, well it lasted five days, you were in
the hospital ten days I guess… L: Yes, you were. ME: Ten days? I: Well, I think so-- ME: They would keep you there? L: Even when Cheryl was born in ’48, you were in the hospital ten days. ME: What were you doing? I: I don’t know, but-- L: Resting. I:
I don’t know, but the part about this was, every day some other guy
came and said he was the baby’s father! I had five brothers-in-law,
they didn’t want me to be alone and feel neglected, so it was Chuck,
and Jack, and Bill… L: They must have been thinking, that woman got
around! I took a course from the obstetrician that I had, Dr. Hall,
before I had Cheryl, and this was before really good birth control came
out, but he did talk about other ways of birth control, because what
was the one thing called, like a cap? I: Diaphragm. L: The diaphragm was just out-- ME: That was the first thing that came out? L:
Right, but it wasn’t foolproof, or as foolproof as some of the other
things, later… Anyway, Dr. Hall said, you know, there are some women,
those ten days in the hospital are the only time they get a rest every
year because they had a baby every year; as soon as they’d get home
from the hospital, the baby’d be two months old, they’d have sex, she’d
get pregnant-- I: Nine months later, another baby— L: So Dr. Hall was saying, “That’s why I’m really all for the ten days in the hospital.” ME: And when you were giving birth, would your husbands be there? I: Mine wasn’t, we didn’t know where Lewis was, he was away. L: George was away, too. ME: Would it have been allowed, though? L: No, oh no, no. Husbands were lucky to get in— ME: Would your mothers be there? L: Yes, my mother was there. I:
Mine was gone… there was not air-conditioning there… you were in the
labor room, windows were open, and somebody said, “if the men could
hear this screaming, they’d never have sex with you and make a baby.
It was horrendous. I don’t know how much you were medicated or not-- L: In my case I was really medicated; I was in labor for two days. I: Oh, dear. L: But I think they did medicate heavily. Well it depended upon the doctor— I:
Sure, and the position of the baby and all that. But as far as I know…
there was no such thing then as ‘normal childbirth’, where you “push,
push, push…” and the husband holds your hand, and, “you’re doing fine,
honey” and all that. You just-- you were medicated-- L: I think the idea was to knock you out. I: Yeah, pretty much. L: Things changed... Shortly after Cheryl was born, things changed…
DYING L: Irene and I were both saying that our favorite books, really, are biographies. I:
…I’ve got one now… I’m interested-- Rose Kennedy-- her life story. And
I haven’t started it and you know I may not be able to tolerate the
religion-- are you on our side? ME: On which side? I: George and I-- we are brothers and sisters together… what’s the word? ME: Atheist? I: Atheist. Or what’s the other one? ME: Agnostic? I: Agnostic. L: George says he’s an atheist, H. says she’s an atheist, I say I’m an agnostic. ME: I think I’m in your camp. I:
I think—I’m an atheist. But you know, I still say, I know people and a
very, very dear friend of mine, her sister’s just been stricken with
cancer, and they’ve only given her eight months to live—and M. is
Catholic by birth, but she’s not a church-goer, but she said now, she’s
praying for her sister… Now it’s not likely that she can pray for her
to live, I wouldn’t think so, she can only pray that she doesn’t suffer
too much. L: That’s what I would hope for. George and I have it all worked out. I: Yeah, right. But Hospice has a great deal to do with people as they approach… I’ve seen some good stuff… L:
Yeah, you know, I did the Hospice training, and the first family that I
was part of, I felt it was an honor to be part of that family going
through the death of their ‘grand mamere’, because first of all she was
such a fine, fine person, and secondly, the way each member of their
family wanted her to pass on as peacefully as possible, and what they
did for her to make— I: You know the one that stands out in my mind
most of all was E… I wasn’t there… but E. and I were very, very close
friends. And she was bathed in lavender and she was put in a beautiful
gown and all the family and close friends were around her instead of
carrying on, they were there, I don’t know if they were singing or
reciting or what, but it was a beautiful ceremony from what I
understand… And in your case, with your first experience, over and
above what they gave to you, did you feel… a satisfaction that you were
able to help them in some way by being there…? L: Yeah, I think so,
because my role was to-- I’ve forgotten her name now-- was to keep her
mind busy and more or less happy during those hours that she was under
my care. Now, she was very religious, she was Catholic… the priest
came every other day and gave her last rites, which, to me, was sort of
black, a black thing, but it made her feel good. And her children, I
think, were mixed, but they all loved her and each one, when it was
their turn to be on duty, came up with either a book to read to her, or
a story to tell, or they’d take her out for a little walk or whatever,
to fill those hours for her in the best way that they could… …The
story is that she had married at eighteen a farmer who already had
seven or eight children and then she had seven or eight children by
him-- I: He should have had a different hobby! L: Yeah, and she
had six cows that were her cows that she milked by hand, it was a big
dairy farm, and then she also fed the farmhands in addition to her own
family, and all those babies growing up-- I: So how old was this woman when she passed? L: She was early seventies. I: Was it cancer? L:
Yeah. But I never heard her complain… and everything you did for her,
she smiled and said “thank you”… And I think it was just-- to see such
love between all the family members—it was, to me, an honor to be part
of that. I: And conversely, you must have, in your experience, been
exposed to situations where you didn’t find that in the houses where
you represented Hospice-- L: Oh, sure-- I: And how do you cope with that, how do you hold back your feelings…? L:
Well, fortunately, I only had that with one family and-- you’re called
in by the ones that do care. And the others are on the sidelines-- the
ones who can’t wait till grandma’s gone, that sort of attitude. ME: And you would pick up on that? L:
Oh, yeah. I think people think when somebody’s dying they can say
whatever they want, and sometimes they do, they let a lot of anger out,
or I don’t know… but fortunately I only heard that from one family.
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