Interview with NOW band leader Justin Paton – London, Oct 2008
You have the Japanese word Pachinko as the title of one of your tracks on Frisbee Hotpot and The Hepadaboo is released by Japanese label Flau. How would you say has your exposure to Japanese culture influenced your music?
Some people like us there. So, I like them. I don't know… Maybe some of their music.
Would you say some of their music actually influences your music?
Yeah. We use a tanshai goto, which is a Japanese instrument, which is like a long pedal steel guitar and I like their, for want of a better word, classical music - the plink-plonk sound and some of the more modern stuff like Haco and Hoahio.
Your band members are from different cultures and backgrounds. Why do you prefer it this way?
It just happens. It's always happened that way, but I do like it that way, 'cause I think if it was four blokes from London it would be a certain thing… or maybe not. I've never really played with four blokes from London as NOW. It's always been boys and girls from different places.
Yeah. But do you think it actually brings some interesting elements to the music?
Yeah. For sure.
How have the musicians from a variety of cultures influenced the sound of NOW?
They would know things that I wouldn't about certain scales. Like, we played a few times with this guy called Chris Cook. He plays sitar and he's very competent and that's an instrument that I really like, but I have no idea of how to play it or even approximate the playing on a guitar, 'cause if you try and play like that on a guitar it can sound quite cheesy, but to have the actual instrument on a song is something else. It's quite special.
Musicians in NOW often come and go. There is a fluidity of band members. Would you say that this is an indication of current trends in London society?
Yeah! Did you notice that? I totally…I'm glad you picked up on that. Wow! Absolutely. I really think it is. Because when I've been in groups before coming to London, when I was in Portsmouth and Hayling Island, that kind of change, I mean, never mind the fact that I didn't know as many musicians, but that kind of change of personnel just didn't happen. But in London I think people are busy with their social lives, everyone has about ten different musical projects and so it's very difficult for people, I think. I'm just trying to get into someone else's head. I don't have this, 'cause I don't play in other groups, but I think it's difficult for them to prioritise and stick to a thing and if it's not their thing, 'cause I'm the leader of the group, then it's maybe difficult for them to get their ego kicks. And I don't mean ego as in a bad word that it's become, I just mean it as it is, as in the self fulfilment, the enjoyment you get from playing music, from creating. Although saying that, some members have stuck around for a long time, but I think those members are probably more into discipline and more into just playing regardless of where it comes from.
Would you say that NOW's music reflects a certain subculture within current London society?
Yeah, 'cause we grew out of the Kosmische scene, which was like the resurgence of krautrock music in the mid to late 90s, a club that was pretty popular. Now they just promote gigs. They don't have regular club. But everyone pretty much knows what kraut rock is now and I think before that people didn't really know. So there's that scene and then there's a thing called Utrophia, which is much broader than Kosmische. Kosmische is mostly German music; progressive rock, electronic music, whereas Utrophia is all that, but also folk music, rock and pop. Maybe more experimental and more pop - experimental pop.
Does the society you are part of influence and inspire your music?
I suppose so. I 've never thought about that. I think so. But then, if I think of a song that I wrote before I was involved in all this…
What is all this?
Kosmische, Utrophia, the London underground. Before that I was just an indie kid. I knew five people in the whole of London. So, before that I think my songs hadn't really changed. I think the stuff I've learnt since musically has helped more than it's influenced. If that makes any sense? In that it's made me think, oh okay, this is okay to mix with one song like a sitar with a no-wave style guitar and really light singing. Whereas when I was in with the indie-kid scene I'd have to really like think… Uh, I'm not sure…you know…maybe people are not gonna like that.
So you're much more open to experimenting with all sorts of things….
I feel that. I've felt that before, but now I don't have to question it in my head, you know. I can just do it.
What are the general topics used for your lyrical content?
Relive the food is about eating a curry and realising that the end result looks the same. It's about poo.
There's one about a one night stand, bitterness…
No feelings . That's about this guy called Jeffery Dahmer. He's a serial killer and it's about him having a conversation with the policeman who found him out.
And there's another one… Everything is in out. It's a new one. That's about a conversation. Sadie Glutz, when she was in prison, she gave herself away by talking to a cell mate about what it was like to kill someone. So that's about her conversation.
Last. That's about, not an argument I had with someone, but this girl, who I went to her house and we were gonna go out, but then I realised I was just too tired. I was gonna stay at her house anyway. She was going out with her friends, so I just said, 'Well can't you just go out and I'll just sleep', because I was too tired. But she actually got really annoyed. So that's about that.
Relationships, but not just boy-girl relationships - different human interactions.
And I also write about theories.
So you write all the lyrics. They have no involvement in that whatsoever.
Angela wrote one, called It's so clicky. But it's not on a record or anything. But other than that, I write all.
What would be the general feel that you want for the musical content? Is it really just open to experimentation or do you have some sort of an idea when you start off?
Yeah, I pretty much have an idea. Sometimes I have a whole idea, like everything, how everything should sound and then sometimes the group come together and put their ideas. Pretty much, mostly, I act or feel like a director.
You make use of a drone tone in your music. What is this indicative of?
That… Well I've always loved Eastern music, particularly Indian which obviously has the drone tone running all the way through. So there's that and I also grew up with acid house and that was very repetitive and sometimes didn't have chords. You couldn't cover it. You couldn't play it. It was more like a bunch of sounds, almost like a drone and then after that, when I was introduced to this whole kraut rock Kosmische thing a lot of that has a drone as well. So those three things made me get to this place.
Does the drone indicate anything about London society?
No not at all, because sometimes people get bored and they can't deal with one thing over and over. Maybe not so much the audience, I think the audience kind of get a kick. I think the audience get a bit of a thrill because they're thinking, 'Is this really just gonna do this?' But I think it's more band members. Some band members have found it difficult to just play one thing, which is interesting interaction wise. If you say to a musician, 'Play more boringly', maybe they think I'm talking about them personally or their playing style. I don't know. 'But actually just play less.' And obviously as the group grows, if there's six people or sometimes there's been nine, which is the biggest amount we've had, the more you have, the less everyone's got to play. They have to, because you can't have people playing big strumming chords and bashing on the drums and stuff, 'cause it'll just sound like a mess.
So it's quite fun, in a perverse kind of way, to see how far someone can go into nothingness. In the direction of like (clapping)… just play that with your fingers. And they're like, 'Are you serious?' 'Yeah, really'. But then, it happened just the other day, a member wasn't really sure about this, play less, play more boringly, but then, when we put the whole thing together, he was like, 'Ah, I get it', 'cause he felt a responsibility to make it exciting. I said, 'That responsibility isn't yours, me and Angela are gonna do a little interplay and you'll see if you play less how this goes on the top. And we did it and it worked.
It's like with Indian music you always have the sitar player playing away and you have the tabla player playing away, but then you always have the two drone instruments in the background and I'm sure that they never had to be told, 'Look, can you just play less', because they know that without them it's gonna sound bare, it's gonna sound really empty. So they know that they're important. People become as important as they wanna be, as important as they want to make themselves. If they're just playing a shaker for a whole track and they're bored, it will show. They could not play it, but then, that track won't have that rhythm, that thing, that extra thing.
African music has that as well, has like someone just playing a shaker or a queeker or some very small percussive thing, but if that's not there then where's the anchor? Then there's no anchor… and Latin music of course, with the cow bells. But I think a lot of Western music, rock, pop whatever has this in it, but it's not recognised as an important thing. If you listen to a Madonna record or something it will have a cow bell in it, but maybe if someone was making that kind of music on an underground level, the musician who has to play that cowbell is gonna be really bummed out like, 'Oh God, I have to play the cowbell', you know, but what they don't realise is that they're adding that little extra excitement to the rhythm and that's all part of the drone.
As a band you are open to live improvisation as well as audience participation. Would you say that this attitude brings a sense of post-modern tribalism to your performances?
If it's right it is. Tribal is a good word. I think like certain words to do with music, I think it's kind of been bastardised by the dance community. It's like the word trance. I believe in trance, but I'm not talking about techno trance. I believe in repetition. I believe in doing something that makes you move or makes your head move and the tribal thing. I think it's also very connecting when you get the audience playing along with you and we're all bubbling away. We've done things before where so many people in the audience have been playing that the group have managed to stop playing and go into the audience and have a drink and relax and they'd finish the gig for us. This has happened a couple of times. It's not so often, but this has happened and it's really funny to see your band mates at the back of the venue, 'Oh, hey, I thought you're up there.' 'I thought you're up there.' 'Oh okay' 'Someone else is playing the drums, though.' 'Oh, who is it?' 'I don't know.' And that's really funny.
As the front man of the band, and you've referred to yourself as the director previously, you rarely, if ever, place yourself centre stage. Why is that?
I didn't really know it before, but you know how, if you get into a group that you really like and you start looking up information about them and reading biographies and just getting all the info? Well, I found a little gem kind of quote from Dennis Wilson, the drummer of the Beach Boys, because I really got into them a few years ago quite heavily and he said, 'The songs are the stars not us'. And there's something in that. I really liked it and it also works because NOW changes so much, line-up. So we might still play a song from eight years ago. Obviously it will be different because the members have changed, but it's the song and if it's good it's good regardless of who's playing it.
I don't want people to refer to it as Justin's band, although people who know us personally or know about the group, they know that I'm the leader, but when it comes to being in front of people and on stage that's not what it's about. It's not about looking at my face or my movements or anything. It's more to do with, I hope, listening. Although a lot of people are into performance, having some visual aspect, but I'm not. I'm not into that at all. I'm into sound… and sometimes it works. Sometimes you get an audience on your side and they don't give a shit who I am. They just like the music and they're dancing and sometimes they're not even looking at the stage and it's almost like, for want of a better word, a rave.
I've done gigs where people are just dancing and they're dancing with each other because of the music, because of the rhythm we're playing and then that's good for us, because then we can have our own little party on stage with each other, because we often look at each other or sometimes face each other even. Not face the audience. Not have our backs to the audience, but you know, kind of, more sideways. So we can feel their reaction, but we are important to each other.
During your improvisation sessions musicians join in one-by-one, feed off each other and perform in an almost circular formation. Why do you set-up your band this way?
Well, when we're rehearsing, always, doesn't matter about the line-up, but always, we are facing each other. Half because of when you're improvising it's good to be able to see the strike of someone's cymbal or the down stroke of a guitar or okay, they're gonna hit that pretty hard, okay, so let's do it. Or we're taking it down now. You know. And you can visually see because of the body language of your band mates where it's going as well as hear it. But also, we found that when we're doing a song with arrangements, with tight arrangements, sometimes the newer members need to look at me or Angela, who are the longer term members, to know where they are in the song. So it's just practical, really. And also none of us are real visual show off type, you know, run up and down, Iggy Pop-type front people. None of us are. So we don't feel the need to line up and face the audience and give them a big show.
Would you say there's a sense of ritual to your performances?
I think the improvised ones are. We're actually connecting more with each other than with the audience. Which may or may not be rude, but people know what they're getting. Generally no. If we're all really comfortable with each other and the music we're gonna be playing, then yeah, then we can really lose ourselves.
But don't you think ritual in the sense that you've got this magician's table full of tools and people come and pick up some things from there? It's like the high priest and the table of contents.
You're actually picking up on a few things that no-one has ever picked up on! I do believe in ritual and things. I don't enforce this on the group, but I think that there can be something there. Sometimes there's not. Sometimes it's just like okay, we just play the songs in an almost workmanlike way, which is rubbish. I don't like that, but yeah, sometimes there's some ritualistic feeling. That comes more if there's an audience playing with us as well. We haven't done that for quite some time actually. We've been playing for ten years, and I've found that over time audiences have actually become shyer; less inclined to participate, less inclined to shout things, less inclined to dance. I'm not sure why. I think, maybe my thing of the music being important, the sound, has come over or something and people just come and listen. I don't know why, but this is just something I've noticed. Only for our audience. But we haven't really played a packed gig for a while, because we're normally playing really early slots recently.
Was it your intention to educate your audience to get to a point where the sound is more important than anything else? Do you feel that you have achieved that?
I think the people who know us, now they know. You know. They know about the fluid line-up. They know that I'm not going to be at the front of the stage fist aloft rocking them. People who don't know us can get a bit…either confused, but interested or turned off. We did a gig a few months ago…or was it last year? Where some people had turned up. We don't know who they are, they were like a lot younger than us. I say us, I don't know, some of the band members are in their twenties, I'm not. I'm thirty-six. These people were like teenagers and they stayed and they watched us. But we were just purely improvising. We weren't playing songs at all. And it was free improvisation, so sometimes it was without rhythm and sometimes it was just noise. But they were kind of interested and afterwards they came and talked to us. They were curious. I don't know if they were into it, but the dynamics of the fact that we were concentrating on each other very strongly interested them somehow, 'cause maybe when you're a teenager you're into seeing a band rocking you. You want a band to rock you or move you emotionally or something, whereas this was something else for them. So they were interested, but maybe they were not into it.
At times, you have four vocalists singing discordant harmonies. What is the significance of this technique?
If we're improvising that's just because each person is singing what they feel and if it's a song you're talking about, it's because they haven't learnt the harmonies. Although you say that, I mean, I hear our harmonies normally on a recording not on a live thing. I listen back to my live things. I record everything. I listen back maybe once just for reference. But the recordings I listen to over and over, because I produce it. I mix it. So I hear it a lot and I think sometimes the harmonies are reminiscent of other things. And maybe they are discordant and I don't know. You're listening from an outsider's ears, so that's interesting.
To what degree are world music, ethnic sources and African music influential to your sound?
Very important. Maybe not the structure or the song writing either. I think, because I grew up on pop music, then the songs are quite pop, arrangement wise pop. You know, they have choruses, they have break downs, big ending, or whatever. But, as for non Western music, that would be the instrumentation or this thing about little things being important, which in Western music is there, but it's not recognised, but in Latin, African and Asian music it's very recognised. You have band leaders who are the maraca player. They play the maracas but they lead the group and they're really important in the structure of things. But in Western music it's seen as almost, you know, like how kids at school joke about the school orchestra, 'You've got to play the triangle' or 'You've got to play the cymbal' and it's kind of being looked down upon. Within NOW, within the group, I don't recognise that. I think that's rubbish. If you're playing a small part, you're important.
Someone who was in the group said about the song No Feelings from The Hepadaboo. 'Oh, this is the one where I don't do much.' And I kind of thought well, that's your opinion, but actually what you do is, you do this vocal, 'cause on the recording it's mostly Angela doing the vocals, but live she couldn't do that because she's got to play this other part. So this person had to fill in that vocal, so straight away that's important. And then there's this guitar part which I couldn't play on a keyboard because I was playing another part. So if that part's not there then, well, you know, it's like…. of course it's important. It's small and you're not playing all the way through. You've got to wait. You've got to go past the intro, the whole of the first verse, then sing, then wait, then play the guitar, then wait, then play the guitar again. But if those things weren't there someone else's got to fill that out who's already playing something else and that's gonna complicate things. So this is how this world music thing works. You don't see people complicating things. It's like someone is the cowbell player. That's their job. The singer doesn't have to sing and play the cowbell part 'cause that's gonna complicate things. So, okay you look at an African group and they have ten, fifteen people in the group and maybe as a Western pop or rock fan you'd look at that and go, 'That's crazy, you know, you could just have four or five'. But it's not crazy. Listen to the track. Try and reproduce that with four people. You can't do it!
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