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Elwood Herring



Last Updated: 9/17/2009

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Status: Single
City: Birmingham
State: Midlands
Country: UK
Signup Date: 1/8/2007
Tuesday, September 30, 2008 

Current mood:  rebellious
Posted on Bad Astronomy

Elwood Herring Says:
September 30th, 2008 at 3:28 am

I know this sounds like a circular argument, but I think a planet is basically whatever we decide to call a planet, especially if it's been given a name. It's like deciding who your best friends are. There is no rock-solid (sorry) universal system for categorising planets as if they are discrete types like sub-atomic particles, so all we have to go with is our own human preferences. The term "planet" is purely a human thing, so let's keep it on that level and stop trying to measure or rationalise it.

So on that basis, Pluto is a planet because it's been as such in the public consciousness for almost eighty years. You can't go back on that now. So my definition is, if it orbits the sun (primarily) and it's been given a name, ipso facto, it's a planet, for the simple reason that we irrational humans have given it an identity.

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To elaborate on my above post, let me state that I am not a scientist although I do follow and take a great interest in science, especially astronomy. I am however something of a poet, and I think what's needed here is for the astronomers who are currently arguing over this definition to take a step back from their text books, loosen up a little and try to see the poetic side of the problem. They have invoked the poetic in naming an object in the first place. Let me explain.

In the subatomic world all the various particles and forces are discrete and easily catalogued, once their properties are discovered. Scientists tend to get used to the idea that everything in nature can be neatly packaged up in boxes like that, but it ain't so, especially when you get to astronomical sizes. What exactly is a planet? Where is the cut-off point between a planet and a star? Or between a planet and a lump of rock? Answer: there isn't one. It's like trying to segregate lakes from ponds, streams from rivers, islands from continents. Whatever rule you come up with, someone will disagree.

On Phil Plait's page (link above) there are some fascinating facts to be found about planets and their properties, and a lot can be learned from that. I urge anyone with an interest in astronomy to read what Phil has to say on that page. But can any of these hard facts be used to determine what is in effect, a vague human poetic term like "planet"? My answer (with my poet's hat on): no, they never will. It can't be done, and here's why. The astronomers have to realise that when they point to something in the sky and give it a name, they have stopped being scientific. They have become poetic. Once you have given something a name, you have deserted your strict scientific boundaries and shown yourselves to be "merely" human, and the upshot of that is that you can't then distance yourselves from that emotional leap and go back to trying to fit that "fact" into a pigeonhole. You deserted that pigeonhole when you named it. You're stuck with it. Live with it.

It's similar to giving an animal a name; suddenly it's not just any old animal, it's become a pet. It has gained recognition in our eyes. It has become part of the Human consciousness; part of our world view. It's not scientific, but it is poetic. Same goes with celestial objects. It's a planet if it's considered important enough to be given a name (and is obviously not anything else like a star or comet or galaxy. Of course the same rule applies to those categories.)

And if that sounds a bit vague, then sorry but that's the way it has to be. If you don't want it to be thought of as a planet then don't give it a name!

Juice33

 
Elwood, interesting theory, but given that over a dozen objects in the solar system have been previously classifed as being a planet, going back and re-classifying these as planets would completely confuse the issue. You'd have some moons of planets called planets and others still called moons. I have read Phil's page and tend to agree with those who wish to place either a mass or diameter limit on planets. There is already such a limit that distinguishes a star from a brown dwarf.
 
Posted by Juice33 on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 4:57 AM
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Elwood Herring

 
No, a moon is not a planet. As I said in the main article, if it orbits the sun PRIMARILY and has been given a name, then it should be classified as a planet. This would by definition include all the ..named.. asteroids (why not?) but not satellites of other planets. Charon would also be a planet since it does not actually orbit Pluto - it orbits a spot above Pluto's surface. Pluto and Charon constitute a double-planet system as far as I'm concerned.
 
Posted by Elwood Herring on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 7:26 PM
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Laurel
Laurel Kornfeld

 
Many scientists favor a broad definition of planet that encompasses any non-self-luminous spheroidal body orbiting a star. The spherical part is important because objects become spherical when they are large enough to be pulled into a round shape by their own gravity, a state known as hydrostatic equilibrium. This is a characteristic of planets and not of shapeless asteroids. We can distinguish between types of planets by using subcategories such as terrestrial planets, gas giants, ice giants, dwarf planet, etc. There is a legitimate case for calling the spherical moons of planets "secondary planets," which they were in fact called during the 19th century. Geophysically, these objects are planets as they are in hydrostatic equilibrium and many are geologically differentiated. The only difference is they orbit other planets rather than the sun directly. Planets that do the latter should be considered "primary planets," in contrast to the secondary ones.
 
Posted by Laurel on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 11:09 PM
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Elwood Herring

 
Ah, but how spherical is "spherical"? Is the Earth sufficiently spherical? Obviously it is, despite having mountains and valleys, but then what about Jupiter, which is actually ..less.. spherical than the Earth (compare the distance pole to pole with the diameter!)

The problem with categorising a planet as a spherical object is that nothing is truly 100% spherical, so as with any other physical attribute an arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere, and this goes right back to my main point - when does a stream become a river, or an island a continent? These definitions are really not scientific at all, but poetic. For example, how often do you hear the term "London Town"? London is officially a city (by the definition of it having at least one cathedral), and has been for hundreds of years. But the poetic term "London Town" stays popular because it is ingrained in our history and our thinking. Similarly with Pluto. It has been a planet for more then 70 years, and it's too late to go back on that now.
 
Posted by Elwood Herring on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 11:27 PM
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Laurel
Laurel Kornfeld

 
You definitely have a point here. However, my argument is not that objects must be exactly spherical to be considered planets. They must be in a state of hydrostatic equilibrium, meaning they are shaped by their own gravity, which pulls them into a roughly spherical shape, as opposed to being shaped by chemical bonds. In some cases, objects are not round but oblate spheroids, such as Jupiter. Haumea is egg-shaped.

I'm glad we're on the same side--the correct side--regarding Pluto!
 
Posted by Laurel on Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - 12:39 AM
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Elwood Herring

 
The debate continues: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327181.600-is-pluto-a-planet-after-all.html
 
Posted by Elwood Herring on Monday, July 27, 2009 - 11:20 PM
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