Thanks for the kind words.  I'm glad you've found a spirituality that works; you seem like a very reasonable person.

For some background on "Christ as God", I refer you to the conflict between Arius and Athanasius a couple of hundred years after Jesus' death.  Essentially, being the "Son of God" does not mean you are "God", to a Jew. Their meaning of this phrase was actually more akin to "Angel" or "Demon" than "God" (See Genesis 6:1-4 for a clear example of this).   So there is even good argument that Jesus never claimed to be God at all in the Bible; that he was only claiming to be a spiritual being. 

 

It's always interesting to read about how people get out of fundamentalism, what prompts that, "Hey, this doesn't make sense!" reflex.
 

  Yeah, I know how that goes.  My Grampa was Disfellowshiped from the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as my mother, and my JW family members were more accepting of my father (raised Baptist) than they were of their own kin.  We've talked before about all of this, and I still contend that religion is beautiful if practiced wisely and humbly.  Once it becomes a matter of power and control, however, it all goes to shit...

So, did you mean to say that Mars Hill beats other churches "pants down," or is there something else that you're not telling us? ;)

(P.S.  Brick is an awesome movie!)

 

 

No, no secrets; "Pants down" is simply funnier than "hands down". 
 

I've never been to church in my life, I'm an atheist. Places like Mars Hill scare me. It's totally scary to see the infuence of fundamentalism in America. From our invasion of Iraq to prayer meetings in the oval office, to the commandeering of popular culture. It's the same old strategy of cultural destruction and absorbtion used since the beginnings of christianity, the Green Man became santa. before that the Roman Saturnalia became Christmas. the vernal equinox became easter. I realize the best way to spread any viral marketing concept is to piggy back it onto existing group-think, but it's the destruction of the existing culture that bothers me. So here comes Mars Hill and they piggy back onto the Seattle disaffected twenty-something slacker tattoo & flannel shirt crowd and then convince everyone that women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen!! A distinct about-face to the liberal, anti-traditionalist ideals of the subculture they have used as their marketing conduit.

Why can't it be ok for people to have different beliefs? Non-fundamentalist religious people are ok with having their faith and not trying to "save" everyone. It's always gotta be about hate and how everyone who is different from them is going to hell. it's such a short step from saving people to hating them and then to killing them. look at history, it's full of examples of religious fervor leading to war and genocide.

I have NO problem with people believing in God or Jesus or whatever, Just because I don't doesn't mean that I'm better than you. It's a shame that the fundamentalist community can't see things that way.

I'm Glad you left the church, having studied many religions, including christianity, from an academic point of view, It seems to me that you're relationship with your god is meant to be a personal one, not to be dictated from a pulpit by someone else. No one should be profiting from your faith.
 

You are very brave. It is extremely difficult to let go of that group feeling. Sometimes, it is so important to “walk” alone. To find yourself and what it all means to you. Congratulations on using your strength.
 

So.. You don't know me but I read the article and your response and found it very interesting.  The same thoughts have run through my mind as I have been attending Mars Hill for about 3 years and simutaneously go to SPU.  I alway considered hard core Christians blind, blind fundelmentalists.  But at Mars Hill I feel like I have been blinded by Truth and that is really what hurts the most.  I see sin, I see truth, I see the choice and it is hard to choose every day to see truth, to be blinded by it.  But I guess I would rather be blinded by the light and forced to fall on my knees (possibly in accordance to the Kook-aid reference) than be blinded by the lies of sin.  The devil is good at making you feel 'free' outside of Christ, it is one of the better tricks but at this point I have made my decision, I have chosen to see. 

So that is more than you probably wanted from a stranger but I thought I would through it out there ... Char

 

I appreciate your courage in expressing yourself even when your words may not be taken kindly.  I take them in the spirit offered, so thank you. Mars Hill and SPU, huh?  That's like the Seattle Christian 1-2 jab and uppercut.

The "Kool-ade" reference has to do with the horse pill of American fundamentalist Christian theology, it has nothing to do with humility before God.  That is completely different, and not specific to this brand of Christianity, or monotheistic religions in general.

"Blinded by truth", that is a very poetic, provocative statement worthy of a Mars Hill member.  Listen, everyone believes they know the difference between right and wrong.  This includes you and me, though; both of our viewpoints have equal standing.

In the same vein of thought, most people believe themselves to be "free", while they see others living in bondage.  This applies to you and me as well.  You say I'm deluded in thinking myself free.  I could say the same thing about you, right?  Maybe the devil has deluded YOU, and I'm the sane one; who's to know?  Do you see the problem with claiming stuff like this?

Charlotte, you are mistaken as much as you are correct in your recognition of good and evil, and this applies to me as well as to everyone else.  The main difference between us is the universal application of this understanding, which does away with "infallibility" of any kind.

 

I'm formally a Christian, no longer 'walking with the Lord' as it were, and I've had similar experiences in churches in my hometown near Portland. It's interesting... I'm actually in Seattle for the week - I should check out Mars Hill and see what a mega-hipster church actually looks like.

Incidentally, I've known at least two people that went to SPU and Mars Hill at the same time too. :-)
 

There's a Mars Hill sister church in portland called "Imago Dei", if you're interested.  
 

Its refreshing to see a well thought out blog.  Kudos for that, even though I disagree with you.

You seem to take issue with the idea of submission, and understandably so.  The thing is we submit to things everyday.  We submit to our boss, to the government, to our desires, etc.  The Christian looks at the world and figures if all these things deserve of our time and energy, how much more does God? 

I do have to take exception with two statements you made, for the sake of clarity.  The Bible does not say women are to be second class citizens, only that throughout history they were treated as such.  The whole submission thing isn't really a problem when one understands what it all entails.  I've yet to see anyone object to it (Christian or not) once its thouroughly explained.  Second, it does not say to unquestioningly follow leaders, but to descern if what they are teaching is true, and then act accordingly (follow or leave).

Our faith is not blind in the sense you're infering.  Its not like some stoner walked over and said, "Um, this guy is God," and we all signed up.  There isn't an objection that doesn't have an answer, the only question is if the answer is good enough for you.  If it is, great.  If not, that's your call.  I just want you to know there are sound answers out there, and our faith isn't blind.  Its not a blindfolded leap off a cliff, but a calculated descision, akin to the kind we make regularly in our daily lives.

While I disagree with your conclusions about Christ, I appreciate the respect and clear thought you demonstrate.  Rejecting Jesus is fine, as long as its the real Jesus, which you surely heard from Mark.  Have a nice day, and I look forward to reading more of you your blogs.

 

Thanks for commenting. 

I've been through a number of Bible studies on submission, so I'm sure I understand the concept fairly well.  And yes, I have a problem with spiritual submission, and unquestioning submission.  No man should try to control other people's souls, or claim to infallibly speak for God.  And yes, I consider the writers of the Bible "men", and I consider Mark a man as well (he does not get to decide who the "real" Jesus is, and neither do you or I).

Yes, the Bible DOES consider women 2nd class citizens; and affirms this.  In the New Testament, even:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 2:11-12
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.  Men are in charge, and women must submit to them.  If they are married, they should submit to their husband AS IF HE WERE GOD (Ephesians 5:22).  I fail to see how you can interpret this as anything more than 2nd class, compared to men.

My comment on "faith being blind" was purely pragmatic.  After all, if we can see clearly, then there is no need for faith.  Faith is only required when things are not known, but believed anyway.

You know, just because I reject Christian fundamentalist dogma does not mean I've "rejected Jesus"; it just means I've rejected a specific belief system loosely inpired by Jesus.  These are very different things.

 

Wow, thanks for that comment; all the way from England, no less!  Hope your trip is going well, and that you are healthy...

My step mom was raised as a Jehovah Witness.  She became an evangelical as a teenager, and was rejected by her father for it.  Aren't people weird, to do these things to each other?  I think that's one of the reason's Mom has never rejected me for religious differences; because she understands what it feels like (and also maybe that's one reason why we suffer).

I know a lot of intelligent people who believe in God; I simply question the wisdom of those who think they've got God all figured out.  This seems incredibly arrogant to me.

Thse ultimate questions cannot really be answered with a few words.  The only answers I've found come as a feeling or awareness; a particular sense of "color" or "shape", if you will.   It's like Siddhartha, right?  Being the river...

I would say life is an equation that is only solved by the process of living.  There are no shortcuts.  And who would want a shortcut when the journey is all we have?

Thanks again, Cady.

 

Hey, just wanted to say thanks for showing class in your posts.  That is something greatly lacking around here.  So, now let me dig in a little.

In the time the Bible was written, women were second class citizens.  The Jews, for instance, wouldn't allow women into the temple.  Paul tells them to go to church and learn; education being another thing traditionally reserved for men.  Take the verses you quoted in the context of their respective books and the issue is not so conroversial.  They were newly liberated women, excercising their freedoms beyond what they should.  There are numerous places in the Bible where men did the same and were chastised for it (like the rest of 1 Corinthians).

And yes, seperate but equal does work in many cases, such as men's and women's bathrooms.  Children are as much persons as audults, but we have special laws to protect them.  Should they be repealed in the name of equality?  What about immigrants becoming presedent?  Absolute equallity is absurd and unrealistic, so lets not even go there (unless you have a lot of spare time on your hands).

Instead, lets look at what the Bible has to say about women being more than second class.

We have Deborah, who was a judge and leader of Isreal.  Priscilla taught the Word of God (but not in the role of elder or pastor).  Read Proverbs 31 where the ideal wife is described.  She has her own income, deals in realestate, she manages servants, she is dignified, wise and strong.  Lets not forget Mary, the person chosen of God to give birth to Jesus.  Ruth and Ester both have books of the Bible named after them for crying out loud.  And my personal favorite, gen 1:27, "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

Jesus treated women with great respect.  The woman at the well was an "unclean" audoleress, and He should not have even been sitting with her, according to custom.  But He not only spoke with her, but offered her a persanal invitation to Heaven.  As with the woman caught in the act of audultery.  Jesus also healed men and women alike, making no distinction. 

And how is the church refered to by Christ, masculine or feminine?

I'm sorry, but your claim that the Bible treats women as second class citezens doesn't hold up.  A few isolated verses in the context of conduct within a WORSHIP SERVICE is simply not evidence for your case.

So the issue isn't women being second class citizens.  It really boils down to submission, doesn't it?  And even that is broad, as the Bible tells us to submit to God, our government, our boss, and leaders in the church, and no one objects to these.  This includes mutual submission, by the way, as stated in Ephesians, ie men submitting to women, but that's for another day.  So the real issue isn't even submission, as we all do that regularly, but wives submitting to their husbands.

It does not to say to submit to the husband as though he were God.  It says to submit to him as long as he's walking with God.  If he says to murder someone, she shouldn't do it.  The Bible does not teach absolute submission as you claimed. 

I could go into more reasoning for this if you'd like.  But I'll end now because I don't know just how interested you are in this, or if you'd just rather I shut up and go away. 

 

 

P.S.
"No man should try to control other people's souls, or claim to infallibly speak for God."
I agree, and I wasn't aware anyone was trying to control souls (which we can't anyway) or claiming infallibility.  If I missed something, correct me.
 

 

Thanks Dean; I appreciate your class as well.  Point taken that there are numerous references to strong women.  You even left out Ruth and Esther, who are great examples of this.  And there is also no question that Jesus considered men and women as equals.  But there are also very clear examples of sexist laws in both the old and new testament, only a few of which I cited.  Definitely contradictory, so I would say that we are both right, to one degree or another.

It's interesting that you think "separate but equal" is acceptable, but I refer you to the first use of that concept, in the Jim Crow laws.  Mark my word, complementarianism is eventually going to be very embarassing for Christianity.  What you are talking about rolls back civil rights advancements made in recent years (many of these rights championed by Christian men and women who obviously didn't agree with "separate but equal").

Absolute equality is not absurd.  It is an "ideal" that we may never reach, but of course more equality is better than less equality; that is the direction our nation has been (imperfectly) going for years.  This has happened through the civil war, and through the various civil rights movements that have made children, women, and minorities more equal to white men.  I must speak out against Christians who want to roll this back in any way.

Wow, I could write a whole 'nother blog here (on submission alone), but I can't right now.  It's obvious that you have things well thought out, and I appreciate your comments.

 

After reading the article in Salon this week, two girlfriends and I decided we were morbidly curious and wanted to check out Mars Hill. All of us are happily agnostic, and curious about how such a conservative church could thrive in Seattle -- Ballard of all places!

Interestingly enough, the service on Sunday was all about the Corinthians line you quoted about women being silent in church. The pastor hemmed a little bit, saying that it wasn't that women couldn't speak at all -- "godly" women could of course speak, but "women with a feminist agenda" should stay silent. He went on for a long time about feminists and how awful they were.

The logic was dumbfounding. So basically, if you're a woman who agrees with the bible, you can speak. If you're a woman who's got questions or doubts the scripture, you should be silent.

Honestly, I spent most of the service with my mouth hanging open. The packaging and stylishness of the church is a work of genius -- and I say that as someone who finds the message totally reprehensable.

Thanks for your post.
 

Hey, thanks for the comment, Ariel!  You guys are awesome, you were curious and took the time to see what all the hype was about, and got first hand information.  Many kudos.

Rationalizing inconvenient scriptures is something religious people are fairly used to; it's quite a bit more shocking to an outsider.  I love the description "mouth hanging open"; that pretty much covers it.

What you report is roughly what I would expect.  If they were to say that women couldn't be in leadership positions, or even speak in church, then they would loose a lot of members (at least, I would hope they would!).
 

I went to the East Side's answer to Mars Hill for awhile - a "cuturally relevant, bible based church" started to try to stop the hemhorrage of congregants.

Yes, it's true you have to suspend all logic to stay a part of a fundie group. There are too many inconsistencies, and you are asked to believe that a group of books voted on and assembled by a group of people back around as 1545 is the inspired, inerrant word of G-d. You are asked to praise G-d for miraculous healings, answers to prayer, only to look the other way when the cancer or whatever comes back in 6 months.

I'm not planning on stepping foot in another church for a long time. Haven't decided on whether I will in the future, but for now, I'm enjoying living a peaceful life, without anyone in it trying to control me, and not feeling dishonest for looking the other way when what I'm hearing from the pulpit doesn't line up with reality.

 

I'm 30-something, questioning life, the universe and everything.

I Just found out that Simon Pegg and Jessica Stevenson/Hynes aren't doing a third series of Spaced 'cause they're too old.

Spaced for me defined my generation in the UK, the XY/MTV/Why? Generation. With Spaced gone, Video Games old, Music unchanging since the late '90s, Buffy gone, the Prodigy old farts, Halfway decent kids TV only available on Sky Premium, old Warner Brothers cartoons banned as being politically incorrect, etc. I'm feeling old and over at 33, still trying to get a job, money for an education to get a job, which requires a job. I still don't know what I want from life other than to not just grow, spawn (If I'm lucky) and die. And I suck at factory work which is the only work I stand a chance of getting.

So I'm currently pursuing a career as an unemployable bum until someone employs me and gives me lots of money.

So what's that got to do with your blog and God?

Just that I'm an ideal target for the Mars Hill crew. Dug what he had to say at first but then found the whole 'Stepford Wives' thing further down being a little bit much. Along with too much fundamentalism in general. The stuff that Islamic kill-all-the-Infidel-Western-dogs stuff is made of.

So how come I still manage to believe in God and Jesus?

Little things make sense. Like bits of my life that's important to me working out sometimes sometime after praying about it. Like the existance of the universe.

At the sub-atomic scale, the universe is a mess of probabilities with stuff continually phasing in and out of existence and being very unstable. The whole universe and our very existance is such a low probability event, what else can explain it?

Quantum Physics has findings that suggest our universe is defined by consciousness. If it's been stable for 14 Billion years then that indicates a super-consciousness that continually defines its existance. That bit in the Bible that says how God holds the universe in the palm of his hands summarises this. Kinda makes sense.

Opens up the possibility that the faith as small as a mustard seed moving mountains thing makes sense too. Our own consciousness is theoretically capable of redefining reality within highly localised regions of space-time, whether it's defining the diffraction pattern of a laser beam through that double slit thing at school, faith healing or moving mountains. Or stopping the rain over a lake and walking on water.

Jesus led by example, doing the right thing even when it pissed religious fundamentalist Jews off. Fortunately as well as by all accounts being a decent human being, he was also the Middle-East equivalent of a Northern bloke from the Yorkshire Dales. Kinda like the ninth Doctor from Doctor Who saying a lot of planets have a North to explain his northern accent. Definately not a Goddammed Tree Hugging Hippie that Cartman from South Park would loath.

Accounts say he did lots of Harry Potter style magical ass-kicking stuff, like raising the dead, healing wherever he went, and being a big hit at Parties with the Water into Wine thing. Not to mention coming back from the dead and ascending to Heaven when enough people had witnessed his return.

OK, I'm not sure about the bible. People did just fine believing in God and stuff before the bible. But they also actively believed in spirits, reincarnation and a lot of other supernatural stuff that was rendered crap and of the Devil when the Bible was published, despite the growing evidence of such phenomena to the contrary.

I regard the Bible not too literally, but as a historically and personally powerful word that defines how to live in harmony with God. So it's also as flawed and messed up as the God-inspired people who wrote it. Just take it as a whole rather than in part and have faith in its between-the-lines fundamental message of how to live in harmony with God and each other for Dummies the Jesus way and it's OK.

As a guidebook to life, the universe and everything it's lacking. That's why we've got Scientists and Buddists and other religions who also know stuff about the universe that the Bible poo-poos.

Besides, other religions tend to have pretty much the same fundamental ideas on how to be a decent human being living in harmony with everything. Does God only talk to people originating from the middle east? Had he forsaken people cut off by Geography in Asia and the Far east or the undiscovered Indians in America back in the day? Or are they pieces of the overall puzzle where people in far off lands found God and worshipped Him from the point of view of their own culture and found out later their religion wasn't the same when they connected with the rest of the world?

And was the Universe really created in 6 days. Theoretically could be, like a new Ikea table made to look like it's from the Middle Ages by aging it by repeated varnishing and stripping and distressing. What's 6 days to God who exists beyond the confines of linear/curved space-time. 14 billion years or six seconds? Or both?

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a blog but I guess I have more to say than I thought. Stuff relating to yours is here somewhere I hope.