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David Margolis


Last Updated: 11/17/2009

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Age: 28
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City: Orlando (formerly Miami)
State: Florida
Country: US
Signup Date: 12/24/2005

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Sunday, November 12, 2006 

Category: Religion and Philosophy

In my previous blog, I discussed Young Earth Creationism (YEC).  YEC is one interpretation of Genesis common among evangelical Protestant Christians.  My goal in that blog was to show that there is a valid form of argument that, if true, requires us to accept YEC in spite of the scientific evidence to the contrary.

In this blog I discuss Old Earth Creationism (OEC), also known as "Progressive Creationism."  OEC is another interpretation of Genesis, most common among Catholics and reformed Protestants.  Although terms like "old" and "young" are relative, the YEC camp traditionally holds that our universe and our Earth are approximately 6,000 years old.  By contrast, OEC's believe the Earth is roughly 4 billion years old while the universe is roughly 15 billion years old. 

Like YEC, the logic of OEC can be summarized with a simple syllogism:

1.  The Bible (or at least Genesis) is the inerrant word of God.

2.  Science has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that we live on an old Earth and an old universe. 

3.  Therefore, Genesis does not teach that we live on a young Earth and in a young universe.

Assuming that a young Earth/universe and an old Earth universe are mutually exclusive, this logic is simple and incontrovertible.  If Genesis is truly without error, and if we know that we live on an old Earth and in an old universe, then it must be true that Genesis does not teach YEC.  Regardless of what you might think Genesis teaches, it is absolutely, logically, 100% impossible that Genesis teaches YEC.... if we agree that Genesis is the inerrant word of God and if we know beyond a reasonable doubt that YEC is incorrect.

The upshot of this syllogism is that OEC's or Progressive Creationists do not have to debate our interpretation of Scripture with YEC's.  We can simply focus on the scientific evidence.  If the scientific evidence clearly and irrefutably supports the conclusion that we live in an old universe -- and I believe it does -- then all Christians must agree that Genesis does not teach YEC, or else concede that Genesis contains errors.

OEC and Evolution

Evolution is generally defined as the change in the heritable traits of a population over successive generations.  All Christians, including YEC's, believe that species have undergone and continue to undergo genetic changes over the generations (microevolution).  Whether human beings in particular have evolved from entirely different species, however, is much more controversial. 

By definition, YEC's must reject macroevolution -- or at least the view that human beings in particular arose from an entirely different species.  That is because 6,000 years is an insufficient amount of time for such major changes to occur.  By contrast, OEC's accept a 4 billion year old Earth, in which there is plenty of time for those changes to have occurred.  OEC neither requires nor prohibits the view that our species in particular resulted from lesser animals.  Some OEC's believe in this macroevolution, such as Howard J. Van Till.  That view is typically called "Theistic Evolution."  Other OEC's believe the same thing but use a different term.  Francis Collins, for example, was the director of the Human Genome Project and a Christian.  In his new book "The Language of God," he prefers the term "BioLogos."  Other OEC's, such as Robert Newman and Norman Geisler, do not believe that our particular species resulted from successive changes in other species -- that is to say, we were created in the form we are in now, even if other species have radically changed.  At any rate, my point is that while OEC allows for human evolution from lesser species, it certainly does not require it.

The Scientific Evidence -- Starlight

Before discussing the scientific evidence for OEC, an important observation is in order:  God reveals Himself to us via nature just like He does via Scripture.  The Bible itself tells us that we can and indeed have a responsibility to learn about God by studying Creation (Psalm 19:1, Romans 1:20).  Thus, the scientific method should be an ally in our quest to understand God's truth, not an enemy. 

With that said, several lines of evidence support the conclusion that we live on an old Earth and an old universe.  I will focus on two:  starlight and radiometric dating.  Starlight:  We all remember from middle school math classes that Distance = Rate x Time.  The speed of light is approximately 186,000 miles per second or 6 trillion miles per year; that is its rate.  Using the Hubble telescope and other astrometric readings, we can ascertain the distance of many stellar objects.  The Andromeda Galaxy, for example, is measured out at approximately 15 trillion miles away.  If we plug in the D = R x T equation, we see that 15 trillion miles ("D") = 6 trillion miles/year ("R") x Time.  Divide by "R" (6 trillion miles/year) on each side of the equation, and we see that 2.5 million miles = Time measured in light years.  In other words, the Andromeda Galaxy is 2.5 million light years away.  That galaxy is visible on a clear night from Earth.  But if that galaxy is 2.5 million light years away, then that means it takes 2.5 million years for the light from those stars to reach Earth.  In other words, we can be certain that those stars have been in existence for at least 2.5 million years.

YEC Responses to Starlight

A few YEC's have argued that the universe is actually quite small, so that it only takes a few light years to transverse it.  Aside from the obvious problem -- how do we account for our erroneous measurements of the distance of far-off stellar objects? -- Robert Newman points out another problem with this hypothesis:  "If the universe were really quite small physically, then the very dim stars and galaxies we see in our telescopes would also be quite small -- too small for gravity to hold them together at their high temperatures."  (Three Views on Creation and Evolution, 109)

A second YEC response is that God created the stars with the light already on its way to us so that we would be able to see the light immediately.  But here's the problem.  When we view a source of light, we are seeing the information that emanated from that source at the time it began its trip to Earth.  When we look up at the sun, for example, it's not as if the light from the sun reached us instantaneously.  Rather, we are seeing light from the sun that is several minutes old, because that's how long it took the light to reach the Earth.  Newman explains the problem for YEC's who argue that God created the universe so that the light was already well on its way to Earth at the time of Creation:  "when we look at the star Sirius we see what it was doing twelve years ago; when we look at the Andromeda Galaxy, we see what it would have been doing 2.5 million years ago if it had existed then, but it didn't, so we are really seeing a continuous stream of events that never occurred -- fictitious history!  As most of the universe is more than 10,000 light years away, most of the events revealed by light coming from space would be fictional.  Since the Bible tells us that God cannot lie, I prefer to interpret nature so as to avoid having God give us fictitious information."  (Three Views on Creation and Evolution, 110)   

Scientific Evidence -- Radiometric Dating

Radiometric dating is a system by which the quantity of a particular isotope (i.e. Carbon-14 or Uranium-234) contained in a fossil or other segment is tested.  We know the rate at which that isotope decays, and so by measuring how much decay has occurred, we can calculate how long the decay has been going on -- in other words, when the fossil or segment was formed.

Robert Newman observes that tests of "rocks using various radioactive decay processes... give ages for various events in the history of these rocks ranging back to a few billion years."  (Newman, Three Views on Creation and Evolution, 110) 

One particularly good form of radiometric dating is uranium-thorium.  This method "gives the same answer as does C-14.... the ages often differ by 10 to 20 percent, but when measuring the age of a forty thousand year old bone, does it really make a difference if the age is not actually forty thousadn years but 'only' thirty thousand years?  That's still a long way from the biblical account of six days."  (Schroeder, The Science of God, 42)  Moreover, Dr. Hugh Ross notes that by this method, "Fossils of four extinct species of whales... have been dated at 52 million, 52 million, 50 million, and 48 million years ago, respectively."  (The Genesis Question, 50) 

YEC's should bear in mind that neither Prof. Newman nor Dr. Schroeder nor Dr. Ross are secular scientists with a stated agenda to disprove theism (i.e. Richard Dawkins).  Quite the opposite:  this information is coming from God-fearing Bible-believers.

YEC Objections to Radiometric Dating

Many of the YEC objections to radiometric dating focus on Carbon-14, and rightly so.  Carbon-14 dating is -- at best -- reliable for dating objects to 50,000 years.  In addition, MIT biophysicist Dr. Gerald Schroeder notes that "with C-14, there has always been room for suspicion.  For the ages to be valid, the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere must always have been constant.... There is now evidence that cosmic radiation has not been absolutely constant during the eras that C-14 is used for fossil dating."  (The Science of God, 42)   

YEC objections to other forms of radiometric dating, however, are not nearly as strong.  For example, it is sometimes alleged that Potassium-Argon ("K-Ar") dating is unreliable because of known errors in that method.  While that statement is true, I have two reponses.  First, many of the errors occurred because K-Ar was used improperly.  Because K-Ar decays verrrrrrrry slowly, it is most useful for measuring fossils that are least a few hundred thousand years old.  Second, when K-Ar says a fossil is 10 million years old, who cares if it proves to be only 5 million years old instead?  YEC is still refuted.

One YEC website points out that all forms of radiometric dating must assume that "The starting conditions are known (for example, that there was no daughter isotope present at the start, or that we know how much was there)."  But that objection consists of desperate, unfalsifiable speculation.  There is no apparent reason to conclude that the isotopes have undergone fundamental changes or that daughter isotopes snuck in, and the website gives no examples of such ever occurring.  And because there are so many independent forms of radiometric dating -- Carbon-14, Uranium-235, Potassium-Argon -- we'd have to assume that our starting conditions for each isotope was wrong.

Scriptural Evidence -- Beginning Presumption

Before discussing the Scriptural evidence for OEC, an important observation is in order:  each of us is created in God's image (Genesis 1:27) and God does not want anyone to perish but for that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).  There is no reason to think that God has made salvation more difficult today than He did in generations past.

But if YEC's are correct, that is exactly what God has done:  I cannot help the fact that I was born in an era in which we have the scientific method, an era in which there are serious stumbling blocks to Biblical faith that did not exist just a few centuries ago.  Had I lived a thousand years ago, I would never have been inundanted by this scientific evidence, and thus it would have been much easier for me to accept the Creation account thus the rest of the Bible. 

Did God really intend the Bible to become a much greater obstacle to our faith in Him today than it was a couple centuries ago?  If yes, has God arbitrarily made it more difficult for people in the modern era to come to Him than people in past era's?  And how do we reconcile that view of science with Scripture like Psalm 19 and Romans 1:20 which encourage us to examine nature in order to learn about God? 

I believe that God designed His word to be equally accessible and relevant to all peoples at all times throughout history.  Now that's the kind of book we'd expect from an omnipotent God!  Furthermore, we should interpret the Bible with an eye toward God's salvific purpose.  Thus, we arrive at a presumption that His truth is no easier or harder to accept today than it was for people in previous generations.  

Scriptural Evidence -- The Length of Each Day

As I noted in the syllogism above, it is not necessary for me to show exactly why YEC's are mistaken in order to know that they are mistaken.  If Premises (1) and (2) of the syllogism are true, then we know that YEC is mistaken even before considering the text of Genesis 1.  I will discuss the Scriptural text not for the sake of other Christians -- I really don't care if they adopt an OEC view or not -- but for seekers.  I want seekers to know that OEC is not some convenient slight of hand but rather a comfortably supported, very mainstream view within Christian communities.

I turn now to the text of Genesis 1.  Here are six quick reasons to believe the "day" (Hebrew: yom) of Genesis 1 is longer than 24 hours.  Please be advised that I was raised Jewish and I am proficient in Biblical Hebrew.  First, consider the Hebrew word yom.  Although this word often refers to a 24-hour period, the Bible also uses the term to describe a much longer period, i.e. the "time" of Genesis 4:3, "continually" in Genesis 6:5, and "remain" in Genesis 8:22.  Also, remember that the infamous "Yom (Day) of the Lord" (Isaiah 13, Joel 1-3, Amos 5, Zephaniah 1) refers to the seven year Tribulation.  Granted, the mere fact that yom sometimes refers to a longer period than 24 hours does not mean it always does so, but the precedent set in those passages does open the possibility.

Second, the Bible teaches us that a thousand years to us are but a day before God (Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8).  Given that Genesis 1 describes a purely divine activity with no human involvement, it is reasonable to infer that Genesis 1 is written from God's perspective, not ours. 

Third, Genesis itself juxtaposes the term "generations" (Hebrew: tohledah) to equal a "day" (Gen. 2:4, Gen.5:1).  And those verses refer explicitly back to Genesis 1, too.  It is worth observing that the NIV Bible conceals the obvious implications of these verses by changing the wording, but every other version -- the KJV, NKJV, the NSAB, and the Amplified Bible -- correctly translates tohledah as "generations."

Fourth, the third day of Genesis 1 surely took longer than 24 hours because verses 1-19 say that God created trees which bore fruit according to their various kinds.  It doesn't take a degree in horticulture to know that trees need several years to bear fruit. 

Fifth, OEC's are often accused of interpreting Genesis 1 metaphorically or allegorically.  That is not true.  We believe God created the Earth in six literal days, but the time it takes for a literal day to pass depends on whether your perspective is from Earth or elsewhere in the universe.  That's no joke.  Einstein's Theory of Relativity shows that time passes much faster on a planet with higher gravity than it does on ours.  Dr. Schroeder explains the practical consequences:  "imagine a planet so massive that its gravity slowed time by a factor of 350,000 relative to Earth's rate of time. That meant that while we here on Earth live out two years, a mere three minutes would tick by on that imaginary planet."  (The Science of God, 48)  So if I write you a letter from this imaginary planet and say "I've been here one day!" I mean it literally -- but in the time that one literal day passed for me, roughly 350,000 literal days will have passed for you (almost one thousand literal years!).  Thus, the OEC interpretation of yom is actually quite literal -- but it's based on literal time as experienced by God, not by Earth.

Sixth, it is arguably not even possible that each day of Genesis 1 is based on Earth-time.  Dr. Schroeder explains why:  "there is no possible way for those first six days to have had an Earth-based perspective simply because for the first two of those six days there was no Earth!  As Genesis 1:2 states, 'And the Earth was unformed...'"  (The Science of God, 51)  Earth is formed on Day 3!  Whatever measure of time is being used in the first two days, it is surely not from the perspective of a planet that doesn't exist.

Arguments five and six become much more complex and impressive in MIT biophysicist Dr. Gerald Schroeder's book, in which he demonstrates that not only are the six days of Genesis not based on Earth-time, but that they are based on Cosmic Background Radiation (CBR), a universal clock of sorts that has been left over from the Big Bang.  "The Science of God" helped make a believer out of me.

The Scriptural Evidence -- The Order of Creation

Even though Genesis 1 in Hebrew accomdates and, I daresay, plainly teaches an ancient Earth and universe, there is still the problem of order.  Regardless of how long each day is, does Genesis 1 teach that we had light on Earth during day 1 even though the sun and stars were not created later, until day 4?  And how did plants survive on day 3, when plants depend on photosynthesis and there was no sun until day 4?

To my knowledge, the following sequence/order is well accepted in the scientific community:  first we have the Big Bang; then the Milky Way and our solar system formed; then the Earth cooled and liquid water appeared, followed almost immediately by bacteria and photosynthetic algae; then Earth's atmosphere became transparent as it became oxygenated; then multicelluar animals and insects appeared; and then mammals and ultimately mankind appeared.

That order is exactly what we find in Genesis!  Day 1 starts at the beginning of time and God instantaneously creates light and darkness.  That sounds a lot like the Big Bang, in which "light literally broke free as electrons bond to atomic nuclei."  (Schroeder, The Science of God, 67)  On Day 2, the "heavenly firmament" which took shape is the disc of the Milky Way, which are pretty much the only heavens we can see unaided from Earth.  Day 3 describes the formation of our own planet, Earth, and its dry land.  Day 3 also marks the appearance of liquid water and plants, which were the first form of life on Earth.  On Day 4, Earth's atmosphere became transparent due to the increased oxygen from the plants, which "gave light on the Earth" and allowed us to see the sun and the stars that had already been formed and were continuing to be formed.  On Day 5, birds, insects, and sealife appeared -- after plans but before mammals, just like biologists have insisted for decades.  Finally, on Day 6, God created cattle and other mammals, which were ultimately followed by His creation of mankind.

So the Bible teaches us that God's order went like this:  The Big Bang --->  The Milky Way, including the sun ----->  Earth, followed quickly by water and plants -----> transparent atmosphere ----->  multicellular animal life ----->  complex mammals  -----> Man.  And that's exactly what science tells us, too.  Note that this view resolves the "light/sun" problem and the photosynthesis problem because the light in Day 1 comes from the Big Bang, and our sun is actually formed at the end of Day 2; but it doesn't become visible until after plants have already appeared.  Note also that the order of Genesis 1 is silent as to whether humans in particular evolved from these other mammals; it just says we appeared after them.

Also, my view on the light/sun issue is the same interpretation voiced in the Talmud.  (Hagigah 12A; Rashi)  The Talmud is the ancient Jewish commentary on the Hebrew Bible, which dates to the 3rd century A.D., long before there was any scientific controversy over Genesis.  Although Christians do not believe the Talmud is the inerrant word of God, it is nevertheless a very persuasive commentary that originates from a people who were intimately familiar with the language and structure of Genesis.

Conclusion

It is so amazing to think that God's word was written in such a way that it made sense to an ancient person -- written in a way that neither catapulted nor inhibited our social development... and yet it is equally relevant and true for us.

Between starlight and radiometric dating, I believe we have sufficient evidence to prove Premise (2) in the syllogism contained at the beginning of this blog.  I have not even addressed other lines of evidence, i.e. the ways in which platetectonics and crusts in Earth's layer showcase an old Earth.  Because the Bible itself teaches us that studying nature is a way of learning about God, we should embrace this research and allow it to enhance our understanding of His word in the modern world. 

Furthermore, even if we considered the Bible in a vacuum, without allowing any outside science into it, the proposition that we live on an old Earth and in an old universe would be comfortably supported.  Thus, Premise (2) of my syllogism is true.  And if Premise (2) of the syllogism is true, then YEC's must rescind their position.  After all, YEC's have already accepted Premise (1), and if both premises are true, it is logically necessary that Conclusion (3) is true as well.  

I continue to respect my Christian brothers and sisters who cling to the YEC view despite good Scriptural evidence and very good scientific evidence to the contrary.  I do not take the radical step of calling their views un-Christian.  I am very concerned, however, by YEC's who have slammed the door of faith in the faces of seekers by declaring that YEC is the only reasonable interpretation of Scripture supported by mainstream Christians.  That claim is outright false.  If you want to believe YEC, fine -- but please don't make it a stumbling block for seekers. 

Currently reading:
The Science of God
By Gerald Schroeder
Release date: 20 October, 1998
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I have a good article that explains it here:
The Creation Myths: Age of the Earth and the Universe

 
Posted by on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 2:20 AM
[Reply to this
_

 
i just read all of "christophers AKA truth's" blog, its all legit.

the old earth creation seems a lot more rational than young earth, but the bible says its thousands of years old and that is wrong so uhm how is it old exaclty? am i missing something from the OEC?


 
Posted by _ on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:03 PM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 
OEC's believe the Bible does not actually teach a young (thousands of years) Earth.  The Bible is compatible with -- if not outright teaches -- the belief that our Earth is billions of years old, and the universe is even older. 
 
Posted by David on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:04 AM
[Reply to this


 
What Noah's Ark would have looked like:



 
Posted by on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 2:18 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

Hey Cap.  It's ironic that my views on Creation are much more in tune with you guys (Catholics) than with some of my fellow Protestants.  But what can I say?  I'm a freethinker.  

Regarding starlight dating (sounds like a matchmaking service), remember that stars constantly emanate light.  You're right that we haven't been watching the Orion Constellation for 250 years, but that's ok, because our concern is the light that we were watching just last night.  If we know that Orion is at least 250 light years away, and we saw Orion just last night, then we know that Orion has been giving off light -- and thus, has existed -- for at least 250 years prior to last night.  Same goes for the Andromeda Galaxy.  We can't say with absolute certainty that Andromeda  existed 2.5 million years prior to the time our planet was formed, but we can say it existed for at least 2.5 million years prior to the day we first recorded its observation on Earth.  And that is because Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away.  I hope that made sense...


 
Posted by David on Sunday, November 12, 2006 - 9:06 PM
[Reply to this
Bible Study Online

 
wow David! Awesome blog!! :)  I like how your mind works, and I love the fact that you demonstrated that science can be used to support God, afterall, God created everything, and He is the ultimate truth, which just logically makes sense that if this is true, the physical truths we perceive should support God, and it does.  I think that sometimes our minds just can't grasp everything, but it doesn't mean that we are right to make assumptions that say one thing or the other.  We certainly have the right to believe in what we want (God gave us freedom of choice) but I think that some of us need to look into our beliefs before concluding that the Bible is erroneous or what not.  thanks so much for sharing this!  If you don't mind, I would like to repost it on my personal space.  :) 
-Aissa 
 
Posted by Bible Study Online on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 6:06 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 
Hi Aissa, thanks for the kind words.  Please feel free to repost it.  All I ask is that you do provide a hyperlink to me or to my version of the blog.  That way I can answer any questions that arise.
 
Posted by David on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 1:48 PM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

We know Andromeda is 2.5 million light years away because we can use the Hubble telescope to ascertain that Andromeda is roughly 15 pentillion miles away.  And we know that light travels at 186,000 miles/second.  So we just come back to the Distance = Rate x Time equation.  We divide the 15 pentillion miles (Distance)  by 186,000 miles/second (Rate) and we see that the light from Andromeda must have been traveling for at least 2.5 million years (Time). 

We can even "reverse-verify" the equation by multiplying 186,000 miles/second x 60 (so that we know how far light travels in a minute) x 60 (so we know how far it goes in an hour) x 24 (so we know how far it goes in a day) x 365 (so we know how far it goes in a year) x 2.5 million (so we know how far light would travel in 2.5 million years).  We end up with a light source that is roughly 15 pentillion miles away.


 
Posted by David on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 1:45 PM
[Reply to this
Aperion

 

That equation doesn't say anything about finding the distance from Andomeda to here.  It just states the distance light would travel in 2.5 million years.

The actual method used is called triangulation.  The problem is that there is only two points (Andromeda and the earth) from which to measure.  Triangulation needs three points to work...that problem is solved because the earth travels around the sun (annual parallax or heliocentric parallax).  We can measure one angle from each side of the earth's orbit (6 months apart).  Since the distances between us are so huge in comparison to the distances we move in realation to each other (Solar and galactic orbits, and deep space drift) the margin of error is comparatively small.  This also works on different parts of the earth (diurnal parallax or geocentric parallax).

So actually we use the pythagorean theroum (using angles; sin, cosin, hyp) to measure distance when we cannot actually travel there ourselves.

I thought you should know that.

TSW


 
Posted by Aperion on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 3:20 AM
[Reply to this
AJ

 
You present your arguement very well. The scientific evidence in all the areas of discipline clearly shows an ancient planet. Science also shows we are quite ancient as well. Modern humans have existed for at least 100,000 years. We have put our feet on every continent since at least 14,000 yrs ago.

I am not astute in Bible study but I can't see any contradiction with using scientific timelines.

We also should consider that the Creator or God , let starlight shine over the entire planet. The middle eastern concept of creation and Bible is not anymore valid than other beliefs held by peoples in other parts of the world.

I have found it hard to believe that, say 40,000 years ago, fully modern humans didn't have concepts of harmonious behaviour amoung themselves. If they didn't we would not be here today. The Commandments presented in the Bible could not have been the first time humans thought about their relation to each other and the Higher Power.

It maybe (the Bible) " The Word of God", I'll know when I make the final journey, but the enforcement of the various middle eastern organized religions over the ancient spirituality of our ancestors, has only brought us to the endless wars for property and material we have today.

I suppose it started with the advent of agriculture and sedentary populations. It's too late, the success of the middle eastern religions has stamped most of our ancient Natural spirituality. Our Mother Earth is suffering , we will suffer also.


   


  

   
 
Posted by AJ on Monday, November 13, 2006 - 3:57 PM
[Reply to this


 
You CANNOT reconsile the fact that Genesis makes it VERY CLEAR that the sun was not formed until day four, after the plants.

Excuses don't fly buddy. I see a little bit of cognitive dissonance going on here. It is very clear, that the Bible is talking about literal 24 hour days in Genesis. That is why it says, "and then there was evening, and then there was morning" at the end of each "day".
If you were correct it would say, "and then there were billions of evenings and billions of mornings" at the end of each "day".

The Bible also gives no account of evolution whatsoever!!! It says God made man from DIRT!!!!!

 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 12:58 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

Because I am fluent in Biblical Hebrew and you have no training in the subject, a bit of humility -- or at least a bit more open-minded research -- might be appropriate on your part.  The "morning" (Hebrew: boquer) and "evening" (Hebrew: erev) point can be reversed, because those same terms are used in Psalm 90:6, Daniel 8:26 and yet those passages indisputably refer to a period much longer than 24 hours.  That's in addition to the six arguments I presented above, none of which you have attempted to refute... and nor should you, because my goal isn't to debate anyone or to show off.  My goal is to show that OEC is comfortably supported by the Bible.


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 1:34 AM
[Reply to this


 
Genesis 2:2 also said that God rested on the seventh day and made it holy, which was the biblical origin and explanation of the Hebrew Sabbath. Are the Jews then, supposed to rest for millions or billions of years at a time, instead of one day a week? Reading through the creation account in Genesis will show that the narrative is presented in a matter of fact way. No allegorical rendering of "days" was ever intended by the author. It is impossible to read the "day" in Genesis as meaning anything else, except the literal 24 hour day.

And if you read Psalm 90:6 it is talking about how in the morning grass springs up new, and by evening it is dried. Interpret it however you want, but this doesn't sound like we are talking about billions of years here either...we are talking about grass!

You people amaze me. You will grasp for anything to hold on to your rediculous beliefs. I cursory reading of the bible will make it quite clear to any normal, rational person that it is not a book authored by an omniscient, omnipresent, benevolent, omnipotent being. If you are so good at interpreting the Bible, perhaps you should start your own sect of Christianity. Heck, there are over 20,000 different sects of Christianity last time I checked, all with their own interpretations. Why don't you tell them that they have it all wrong and start your own church, or cult. It could be the branch davidian's II, and your interpretations could be called Davidism or something!!
Why all the confusion over interpretations?? Is God a crazy trickster??

 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:05 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

Aside from the point Matthew brought up below, OEC's believe that the perspective switched from God's time to man's time when man actually appeared.  The Sabath day of rest occurs after Adam, and indeed after the divine act of Creation had concluded in its entirety (Genesis 2:1).  Why did it switch perspectives then?  See reasons numbers 2 and 5 in the blog under "The Length of Each Day."  If we phrase the proposition negatively, we could say that the divine act of Creation was completed, so it was not necessary to speak from God's perspective anymore; and if we phrase the proposition positively, we could say that Genesis 2 on focuses exclusively on man and on happenings here on Earth, so it makes sense to think that we're talking about Earth-time. 

The question about confusing interpretations is actually very valid and very important in my opinion.  Please stay tuned for an upcoming blog on this topic.


 
Posted by David on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 4:29 AM
[Reply to this


 
Wow, you actually acknowledged I have a valid point. Nice.

However, you are grasping for something that clearly isn't there. Reading through Genesis it is very obvious that the author was describing literal 24 hour days. You would have no problem with this interpretation if science had not undermined the bible with it's pesky proof. Before science proposed the big bang, and proved the age of the universe, people of the faith had no qualms about believing in a literal seven day creation (many fundamentalists oppose science to this day). Now, when threatened with opposing evidence, Christians start reinterpreting the bible to try and reconsile faith with science. Honestly, it cannot be done. Genesis claims that god created man from dirt, and woman from man's rib. These ideas are rediculous, at best.

What this clearly shows is yet another example of cognitive dissonance. When faced with two clearly contradicting ideas, apologetics such as yourself cannot bring yourself to the point that the fundies have, which is to lie about science and say that it is wrong. No, you don't do this because you are moved by the evidence. This is a good thing. But, you want to have faith. You believe in belief, so what you do is find any way you can to reconsile your conflicting belief systems. This is not a good thing, because when you do this, and subscribe to these patently false ideas about our universe, you give cover for fundamentalists.

How do you reconsile the fact that the bible gives a very geocentric view of the universe, and that it presents us with a flat Earth? Surely you know these propositions to be false, so how are we to trust anything it says about the way the universe was constructed?

Did you also know that our universe is quite possibly not the only one? There is significant proof that our universe is one of quite possibly thousands of others, each with their own separate set of physical laws, each spawning from the dark energy existing throughout the entirety of the cosmos.

 
Posted by on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:41 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

As I said below, there is absolutely zero evidence for the multiple universe hypothesis.  And you know there's no evidence, too, as evinced by your dogmatic insistence that science will one day prove such things true.  Of course, by definition, we can never see outside our own universe, so we never could have any evidence for that particular hypothesis even if it was true.  So why do you accept it so easily? 

I believe you are running into very dangerous and seductive circular reasoning, i.e. that we should accept the multiple universe hypothesis because there is no God (and in His absence, the multiple universe hypothesis is the only way to account for why our universe and our planet are perfectly attuned for life) and believe there is no God because there are multiple universes (thus eliminating the need for Him, teleologically).  You cannot rely on the truth of atheism in order to justify your faith in the mulitple universe hypothesis and also rely on the truth of the multiple universe hypothesis in order to justify your atheism.  That's no better than the circular reasoning employed by some Christians.


 
Posted by David on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 8:13 PM
[Reply to this


 
Mathematical proofs cannot be denied, and whether or not this theory is true, this proves nothing about whether god exists or not. I am just trying to get you to think outside the biblical box.

Also, we cannot "see" god, yet you dogmatically insist that such an entity exists. Where is your proof? You have none. You have not proven god's existence. You cannot prove god's existence. In fact, I can show that there is an extremely high probability that god (in the Christian sense of the word) does not exist.

You have also ignored my question to you about the biblical claims that the Earth is flat, etc.

 
Posted by on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:19 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

I know I answered the flat Earth (and geocentric theory) stuff very recently; maybe it was in response to someone else's question.  Hit me up with the passages that you feel teach a flat Earth or a geocentric solar system and we can consider them.

As for God, you make it sound like we can't know anything is true unless we can visually see it.  But there are other kinds of sensory evidence, i.e. tactile and auditory.  If you and I talk on the phone but we've never met each other, then I haven't seen you, and yet it is still quite reasonable to conclude that you exist.  Furthermore, scientists often conclude things are true or real even if they have not bee observed, i.e. various waves, particles, and other phenomenon.  Also, we often rely on the testimony of others for things we haven't personally experienced; have you seen our Earth rotating?  Have you seen its spherical shape?  All you've seen are words in textbooks and pictures which may or may not be real.  In fact, if you relied on your own vision, we would doubtless conclude that the Earth does not rotate and that the Earth is flat.  So this whole "seeing" thing is really overrated:  it is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition for knowing something exists.  Ironically, atheist Richard Carrier gives a pretty good breakdown on various types of knowledge in his book "Sense and Goodness Without God."

As for the multiple universe hypothesis, do you believe it or not?  If no, what is your answer to the Teleological Argument for God's existence?  If yes, why do you believe that hypothesis when there's no evidence of any kind to support it? 


 
Posted by David on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 3:37 PM
[Reply to this
Matthew

 

Your argument would work if the Sabbath only ever referred to one day in seven.  It doesn't.  A general one-in-seven rule applies, but there are also Sabbath years, for example.

Hebrews 4 also encourages us to enter God's rest -- the rest He entered after creation.  If the "days" of Genesis are only 24 hours long, how are we to do that without Doc Brown's DeLorean?


 
Posted by Matthew on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 2:30 PM
[Reply to this


 
Sir David, you are the epitome of the sunday mass fuhrer!  you are well educated in your magic ways and it would do you well to profit of this in the future, I , however, want to vomit right now, to the fact that you said you were a free-thinker!  hahahahahahahahaha!
 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 1:14 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 
I arrived at a religious conclusion, as an adult, that was quite contrary to my upbringing.  I did it after a long spiritual journey which linked individual prayer and research, even though I had no support from my family or friends in this search.  What could possibly be more freethinking than that?   
 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 1:35 AM
[Reply to this
:::Ghost:::
Vyacheslav Molotov

 

Thinking about it 'daviid' please can you produce your own work and thoughts not those of others (plagiarism), just mention it has i noticed comments commending you on how brilliant you are! lol

So please enlighten my curiousty of your finding religion as an adult, and how and why was it  contrary to your childhood? May i beg where this wonderful journey went from and arrived at? And please educate me on this factual 'evidence(research) you fell for....? Is this comment you write, looking for endearment from fellow worshippers? it smells of 'narcissism' from where i'm sitting, oh, Lord David of Free thought! haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;) don't think so davey boy!!!!!!!


 
Posted by :::Ghost::: on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 2:47 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

Huh?  This blog is absolutely my work -- except of course for the sections which I properly quoted.  Who could you possibly think that I have plagiarized?

The story of my conversion to Christianity a couple years ago can be found here.  It was the first blog I ever wrote on MySpace, actually. 

 


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 3:09 AM
[Reply to this
Ian

 

I often ponder ideas, philosophy, suggestions of the big three ideas can and will be debated to a point of distraction or a new idea, it's best to take a little bit of each..

Something did create us,

we are evolved,

language, art, music, tools, flourished for some reason,

then we became the hunters and not the hunted, this is what we should be trying to understand, is it not the most important time in human history? what happened then??

I think it's time for a new idea..........

Peace... Ian :)

 

 


 
Posted by Ian on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 1:37 AM
[Reply to this
:::Ghost:::
Vyacheslav Molotov

 

you people really know how to convince yourselves! You can't or won't get it, PROOF dear chap you can't prove nothing with 'cretinism' its cherry pick 'evolutions main premise, distorted with bits(lots) of mumbo jumbo, then it puts out to the 'drones' so they can hear in awe at a non-scientist produce with absolutely  no Proof this 'cretinism' bollocks, and then say its a scientific fact! The 'BIBLE' is a myth its a story which started life way before 'Jesus' appeared in the story line. Its about the SUN and how it rotated in the year, the story is the oldest piece of fiction that man as ever told, Fact. Please step out of your 'delusionary bubble' and read facts and not 'cretinism' retard nonsense, you might then come to terms with how wonderful nature is without a fairy tale attached to it....Sorry brother we evolved and by the brilliance of natural selection our genes have been passed on, in fact congratulate yourself that your genes have made it to know, isn't that so amazing!!!!

i reckon if you had believed the 'GOD' cretinism story we would have all been extinct by year 100, he's a malevolent/sadistic/cruel/tyrannic/racist/sexist/inhumane/megalomaniac.These ain't my discriptions but his 'OWN', read his book sometime, your see there a pretty fair discription of his ways!;)

 

 


 
Posted by :::Ghost::: on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 2:29 AM
[Reply to this
Bible Study Online

 
You really need to calm down first.  Why are you so angry?  Have you even done ANY research on how the bible is supported historically?  What made you decide that natural selection isn't a myth?  Did you yourself study in a lab or did you merely listen to what you were told and accepted it?

What parts have you ACTUALLY  read from the bible? 
-Aissa

 
Posted by Bible Study Online on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:31 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

Hmm, I note with interest that you have not actually responded to any of my arguments.  But it's interesting that you call the Bible a "myth," since the Bible itself uses that term (Greek: mythos) pejoratively, i.e. 1 Timothy 1:4, 4:7, 2 Timothy 4:4, Titus 1:14, 2 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 1:3.  The author of Luke says that he investigated all of these things carefully and personally (Luke 1).  Now, you may think the Bible writers were mistaken, but that's different from claiming the Bible is an intentional myth.  On the subject of the Bible being taken as a myth, Christian apologist Glenn Miller has written a brilliant article that can be found here.


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 2:45 AM
[Reply to this


 

david....so when are you going to answer my questions from a week or so ago?

such as....what's REALLY going on with david?

Do you ever reduce yourself to nothing, do you think of context?

don't you think that it is strange that YOu picked your religion?  seriously?  You picked your religion! again....you picked your religion.

just like tomorrow, i may become a zoastrian....you may become a muslim! at any time....and then answer this.....will you then justify yourself with further insufficient justifications?

du, du, du, du, du, du,,,,,now all of a sudden, i am a believer in Zoastrianism!  when someone in my family dies....they will be put outside so the buzzards may peck at  their rotting flesh!   this is STILL practiced......talk about prehistoric crap...not to mention, the serious health concerns.

i still assume, that with a brain like yours, you REALLY dont believe in general nonsense, furthermore, the religious nonsense!  what is the difference?   jesus hates me, but loves you!   He shows himself to you, but not me!  enjoy the con that you walk around with!   peas


 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:29 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

Hmm, could you go ahead and restate your questions from a week ago? 

As for Jesus, he doesn't hate you!  You are created in his image (Genesis 1:27) and he came to die for you regardless of whether you choose to accept his gift or not (1 Timothy 4:9-10).  The cross is like a Christmas present just waiting under the tree for everyone.  That's part of the beauty of Christianity:  Jesus is not some esoteric figure available only to an elite few, nor can he be known only by scholars.  Jesus is the real deal and he wants to share eternity with you!  Jesus never turns away those who come to him with a humble heart, those who want the gift of forgiveness, mercy, and unconditional love that only he can offer.  But God is not some hooker who is going to throw Himself at you, either.  If you want to know God, the responsibility falls squarely on your shoulders to seek Him.  (Jeremiah 29:13) 


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:57 AM
[Reply to this


 
The doctrine of the atonement makes absolutely no sense. (read this blog)

You also make the claim that only Jesus can give the gift of  "forgiveness, mercy, and unconditional love". This is patently false. I can learn such things from atheistic philosophies such as Taoism and Buddhism. My own mother gives me such gifts on a daily basis, and my dog gives me unconditional love.
 
Posted by on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:47 AM
[Reply to this


 

Again, clearly i stated a question from a week ago...it is the one that says "such as"-that was one of them....you are avoiding things ever-so-blantantly!

and then of all things you cite biblical reference that was presumably written by many dehydrated delusional con-artists of the desert.....anyways.....

don't answer my question, for i know the answer just as you presume to know god!

the truth, you are a scared young man, you seek out something that has no proof to feel as though there is a point in your life to serve an invisible cloud god that you talk to, you fold your hands as if to strengthen your brain and thus buy yourself a power to believe in your own questions, furthermore, you exude arrogance and loose precious time being smart with ignorance, including you forget to explain things as a free thinker for explaining things with biblical quotations is not free and or your thinking.  when will david explain things involving questions of other beliefs, what about my questions of you choosing your religion....do you break yourself down to nothing.?  what is there? i could do this forever, but i must educate myself in areas of my own ignorances now, maybe you could too!?         i could analyze you subjectively too......but here the objective theme that best describes david------you are like a small child who builds up a fortress to keep the truth away that santa claus, the easter bunny, and Jesus is NOT Real!   why is it you can't admit this?  Denial!  That and as a man, men don't like to admit when they are wrong, and surely they will go to extreme measures to avoid looking stupid.....well played david, well played!


 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:36 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

First, all of us are ignorant in some areas, and I am certainly no exception.  In fact, even in areas of expertise people have holes in their knowledge.  I'll be a lawyer very soon but that doesn't mean I know 100% of the law.  I do not presume to know every possible argument that could be made for/against every possible religious belief.  But just because we can't know everything about God doesn't mean we can't know anything.  The same goes for people, in fact.  I may not know everything about you, but that doesn't mean I can't know anything about you.  Although I don't know everything about God, I do know some things about God, i.e. the outrageous love that He manifested by dying a humiliating death for us. 

Second, if my goal was to "avoid looking stupid" and to not admit when I am wrong, then why would I write about this stuff in the first place?  By having a public blog, and by allowing uncensored comments, I think I've pretty much indicated my willingness to accept criticism, questions, concerns, objections, etc.

Finally, I looked back at your previous comments in this blog and did not see any question resembling the one you just alluded to in the first sentence of the comment to which I am responding.  I get at least a dozen private MySpace emails a day in addition to writing this blog and responding to it.  And I am not bitching about it; I love doing this and I want to manifest God's grace at every opportunity.  But I am human, too, and I clearly missed or forgot your question.  So you'll have to restate it fully if you'd like an answer.


 
Posted by David on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 4:28 AM
[Reply to this


 

and one thing i forgot....you talk of spirits and invisibles yet you cite a bible that was written by non-spirits and non-invisibles?   so really , in its pure form you are citing man not god/s.  and this is what i am talking about, has there ever been proof a man talks to god?  no!  is there any case in which psychics helped the FBI,,,,NO!  Do you believe in psychics?

 


 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:43 AM
[Reply to this
Jesse Brenton Taylor

 

Actually the History channel did a documentary on a guy the cia did use to track terrorist in other countires. I saw it. It seems like you allow your emotions to govern your intellect and writing instead of your intellengence based on the evidence. try again

Shalom 

 


 
Posted by Jesse Brenton Taylor on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:18 AM
[Reply to this


 

Definition of Faith: Belief that is not based on proof. Being without evidence of things not seen.

You know, THAT is the really cool thing about this country! You can think, feel, believe what ever it is that you want and so can David. What never ceases to amaze me is the anger that comes from people when talking about faith. Are we really angry about what each other believes or are we angry that they have the freedom to believe when you just know that you, are in fact, the right one.

I've been reading through some of the comments and what i find  interesting is how on the attack a few of you are because of what David believes. It's his blog, his thoughts, his belief. Now i'm all for a good discussion in the pursuit of understanding  another's point of view but it doesn't seem to me that most humans can handle that. Why? Why does this affect you in such  a way where you feel the need to be so aggresive? If you are strong in what you believe than that should be enough for you to be able to read his blog, think about it, express the things you may agree or disagree with and move on. As I read through your comments most of them are quite personal along with a couple of other people. Honestly. I'm just wondering where that comes from.

Just curious :)

Btw, read my friend spoons blog if you get a chance.... these questions I ask remind me of the question he asked yesterday! :)

thanks ;)


 
Posted by on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 2:43 PM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 
Hi Kendra, thanks for your kind words.  If you send me a link to your friend's blog, I'll check it out.
 
Posted by David on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:23 AM
[Reply to this


 
you've actually already been to his page. "spoon".. i found you through him. :)
 
Posted by on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 4:38 PM
[Reply to this
Ian

 
It amazes my why people become so emotive in these type of discussion, then what amazes me more is the general robust with quotes from the Gospels, to take this literature and give it any credibility suggests to me that freedom of thought is walking around with a ball and chain strapped to the ankle.......
 
Posted by Ian on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 3:03 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

To answer the last comment first, no one likes to sit back and be insulted for no reason but I am blessed to be insulted for Jesus' name (Matthew 5:11, 1 Peter 4:14)

The issue of God's relationship to time is actually very interesting.  I wouldn't say God operates under the boundaries of time so much as to say that God is capable of experiencing time, and when He does, it is from a perspective different from our own.  I highly recommend Time and Eternity by William Lane Craig, which discusses God's relationship to time.  There are different views on the topic and I do not believe it is an affront to God to say that He can experience time.

In The Science of God, Dr. Schroeder elaborates on your question about gravity.  I apologize for not typing it all out but it spans several pages, and I don't have a strong enough physics background to feel comfortable summarizing/conflating it.

Finally, the temporal perspective shifts to Earth-time as soon as man appears.  So we have the purely divine activity -- the six days of Creation -- and it's measured in God's time.  Once man appears, that's when the perspective shifts to our time.  Technically, God could have switched to Earth time after Day 3 during which Earth was created and the planet cooled.  But that would make an exegesis of Genesis even more complicated than it already is.  It's worth noting that even since ancient times, the Jewish calendar has begun with the appearance of Adam, not on Day 1 of Creation.  The fact that ancient Jews understood Genesis in a way very similar to the way OEC's espouse is good evidence that this exegesis is correct.


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:03 AM
[Reply to this


 
I can't wait until the scientists prove the theories they are currently working on which will prove, through M-theory and brane cosmology, that the universe has always existed.
What will you people scramble, and grasp for then? How will you reconsile the fact that the universe has always existed, and never just "popped" into existence by something that has always existed??

A simple study of physics will show that energy CANNOT be created, or destroyed... only changed into different forms. So, what does this say about our universe?? If you read Stephen Hawkings book, "A brief history of time " he states that at the moment of our most recent Big Bang, that "the curvature of space-time" was infinite!!!!

I bet when scientists prove this, we will have apologetics scrambling like chickens with their heads cut off looking for ways to reinterpret the Bible to suit their needs. Honestly, you people can't keep this up forever.

 
Posted by on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:14 AM
[Reply to this
Grace Like Rain

 

Ponder that you are happier with a 'pre-existant' or eternal universe than you are with a 'pre-existant' or eternal God? The concept of infinity and eternity has merit, No?

God bless and keep you,

Lisa


 
Posted by Grace Like Rain on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 4:08 AM
[Reply to this


 

The truth is, if christians are wrong, well then we're wrong. No harm no foul.

But.... if non-believers turn out to be the ones who have got it wrong then according to our beliefs... you may have a problem. The christian faith  is based on the fact that you are either a believer ( accepted christ into your heart as your savior ) or you are not. So...therefore, there is only one of two places you can go when you die, heaven or hell. God gave us all the choice.He loves each of us NO MATTER what our choice may be and is only saddened if you decide not to choose his love.

The "Church" ( people ) has done a lot of damage to a lot of people.... I believe that religion has absolutely NOTHING to do with God. PEOPLE have used the church/religion as a form of control for centuries. That is NOT what God had intended for us. His intention for us was to know his love and mercy and forgiveness in our lives. Shame, condemnation, guilt are all man-made weapons of manipulation and control. God is love... period. He judges with mercy.... not my or your job. I know I'D fuck it up. ;) He knows our hearts and loves us anyway!!! That, in and of itself, is pretty darn amazing :)

I say all this becaues I understand what would drive someone to think all believers are nuts because most "christians' quite frankly.... SUCK! But..... they do not all speak for me. Ignorance breeds hate and ignorance is not a disease of one group. It infects everyone....

The choice; Do we allow ourselves to stay ignorant to other peoples views which then makes us angry because we don't truly understand... OR .... do we open our hearts and minds and truly listen... LISTEN, to what someone else has to say?

You choose.

 


 
Posted by on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 7:11 PM
[Reply to this


 
Your reasoning is seriously flawed. The appeal to fear is a huge logical fallacy and will win you no points in an argement. What you are arguing is yet another version of Pascal's Wager, and holds no philosophical footing as can be seen here:

The Rejection of Pascal's Wager

You may think that your faith is harmless, but let me assure you that it isn't. The consequences of your beliefs can be seen in my blog section entitled, "why blind faith is dangerous".

 
Posted by on Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:10 AM
[Reply to this
EvilTwinkie
Evil Twinkie

 
Kendra, its one thing to LISTEN to anothers view point and contemplate it, its completely different to shove the view point down others throats or taking advantage of thier confusion to propigate your own beliefs. Or use scare tactics to convince others that your beliefs are the only way.

Additionally, religion has the nasty habit of forcing people to stop thinking for themselves and rather accept things they are told.

Finally, religion ultimately is the single largest reason that people have murdered millions of other people for absolutely no other reason than a belief.

No harm no foul is unfortunately far from the truth OR reality...

 
Posted by EvilTwinkie on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 1:24 AM
[Reply to this


 

Well Edgar, I appreciate what you're saying but I think I said the very same thing, either in the comment you responded to or the one above it.

In my view, I was responding to what seemed to be exactly what you apparently feel I was doing. The responses to David's blog have been so much on the attack and it seemed to me that they were trying to shove it down his throat. I don't know David and until yesterday had never talked to him much less read his blog. Mine was an unbiased opinion only speaking for myself and my view od the situation.

Look Edgar, I myself have been hurt in the church but what I figured out, after I left and took sometime off, is that people are the problem not God. He is a loving, adoring, caring God. But, the basic choice we humans must make, as to where we will choose to spend eternity, is ours. I'm not shoving that down anyone's throat. Just stating what I believe. You can choose WHATEVER YOU WANT!! Isn't that great?! We live in a country where we have that freedom that God already gave us! AND we can have friends that believe something COMPLETELY different than we do  and still love each other!! At least that's how it SHOULD be....

As I said before ( which you may want to scroll up to read because if you had you would know what you thought I may think is not true ) religion  IS NOT GOD!!! Religion is PEOPLE. People trying to control other people in God's name. That... my friend IS bullshit. So, please, if you have a second please read everything and try not to jump to an emotional conclusion just because this happens to be a volatile issue. 

Thanks Edgar :)


 
Posted by on Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 2:33 PM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

What I find particularly baffling is that you acknowledge science has yet to "prove" any of this, which is a very understated way of acknowledging that we have zero evidence that "M-Theory" or any other string theory is actually true.  All we have, literally, is philosophy that uses scientific-sounding words.  These "theories" have never been tested or falsified; they are not subject to the scientific method.  I find it incredible that you accept them so easily.  Between this M-Theory stuff and your blind faith in the Wikipedia, what kind of skeptic are you?

Parenthetically, even if some type of string theory was true, how would it disprove classical theism?  This book by astrophysicist Dr. Hugh Ross makes a compelling argument that quantum mechanics (including its possible implication that the universe has 11 dimensions) can be used to prove and/or reconcile many paradoxes in Christian doctrine.  And it is indeed ironic that you mention Stephen Hawking.  In the newer version that classic book, Hawking, an agnostic, discusses the starting conditions of the universe and says it is "very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in just this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us." (A Briefer History of Time, 73).  That's why Hawking is looking for other solutions:  not because God is a poor one, nor because there is any evidence that M-Theory is true, but because he hates the philosophical implications.


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 11:57 PM
[Reply to this


 
The only thing this would prove is Deism, or perhaps Pantheism, not Christianity. We have a myriad of reasons for rejecting Christianity. Many of which can be seen in my blogs, where you haven't answered any of the objections to your faith. I wonder why?
I don't mind people believing in God in such a way as Einstein or Spinoza did, because these things are more realistic, as where theologians make incompatable dogmatic claims about god, with absolutely no evidence to support their arguments. We see no sort of "intelligent" design in the universe, only blind, dumb chance. Life could have evolved a trillion times different than the way it happened to in our case to create us, but that does not mean that it was deliberately planned this way from the beginning. We just got lucky, that is all.

There is no intelligence evident in the product of evolution that you see when you look around you. Natural disasters, disease, frail and weak bodies, mental illness, death, etc... this is not "good" work. If there is a god, he should have been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago.

Science WILL prove these things about the universe to be true, just because they haven't yet, there is no need for god-of-the-gaps arguments. By the way, when they prove the threories (which they are very close to doing) they will have done so with mathematics. Mathematics is an undeniable Truth, this fact is self evident. Mathematical proofs cannot be refuted.

 
Posted by on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 12:38 AM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 

To answer your last paragraph first, I agree the mathematics is true by definition.  But I am stunned to hear you say "there is no need for god-of-the-gaps arguments," when that's exactly what atheists must rely on in order to counteract theistic arguments like the Cosmological Argument, the Teleological Argument, the Origin of Life problem, and the Moral Argument.  Instead of invoking God to fill the gaps in our knowledge, atheists invent impressive-sounding terms like "M-Theory" and "multiverse" and "cosmic rebound."  Because none of these hypotheses have any evidence whatsoever to support them, it's just a naturalism-of-the-gaps instead of a god-of-the-gaps.  But that's ok; there will always be holes in our knowledge and sometimes conjecture is necessary both in science and in theology.  I just want atheists to recognize that they have to rely on god-of-the-gaps arguments too.

Unfortunately, your dogmatic pronouncement that "science WILL prove these things about the universe to be true" does not rely on current knowledge but rather presupposes your own conclusion.  That's no better than me saying, "Jesus WILL return and prove these things in the Bible to be true."  I can hardly rely on Christ's return as evidence for my conclusion that Christianity is true.... after all, it hasn't happened yet!  Even worse, there is no reason to believe that Jesus actually will return unless we presuppose that Christianity is true.  So we'd be using Jesus' return to prove the Bible and using the Bible to prove that Jesus will return -- it would be circular.  And you're going to run into the same problem.  You don't know that science will prove these things about the universe to be true unless you presuppose that atheism/pantheism is correct, but you have no reason to accept atheism/pantheism unless we assume that the "multiple universe" hypothesis and this other stuff is true.


 
Posted by David on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 2:54 PM
[Reply to this
David
David Margolis

 
Hi Brianna.  Thanks for your encouragement.   Having been raised Jewish, I am quite familiar with Kaballah, at least in the Zohar and its other original (Jewish) forms.  That might make a good blog topic, actually....   
 
Posted by David on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 5:13 AM
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David
David Margolis

 

Let us first look back to the syllogism I presented at the beginning of this blog.  I am convinced that Premise (1) is true, among other reasons, because the historical evidence tends to show that both Jesus and St. Paul claimed to have personal, first-hand knowledge from God that the entire Torah is His word.  If they really taught that, then we inquire as to whether they had a motive to lie or whether both of them were just insane/delusional?  If not, then they must have been told the truth.  And if they were telling the truth, then Premise (1) must be true.  We can know it even before studying a word of Genesis itself. 

And if Premise (1) is true, then there are only two possibilities:  either (1) our scientific evidence which points to an old Earth and universe is mistaken, or (2) the YEC interpretation of Scripture is mistaken.  I believe (2) is more probable in light of the overwhelming scientific evidence and the six Scriptural reasons I offered above.  I think one of the reasons this sounds like a stretch to you is because you're looking at Genesis in a vacuum rather than analyzing the evidence in the way that I mention in the above paragraph.  A second reason this probably sounds like a stretch is due to a lack of proficiency in Biblical Hebrew, for which you can hardly be faulted.  But I've tried to make the Hebrew stuff as straightforward as I can, and I don't know which of the six reasons you find to be such a stretch....


 
Posted by David on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 11:24 PM
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