i have not loved or been loved in return. not in the sense that you're speaking of. i love my family. love my friends. deeply love God. but no reciprocity in romance, if you will. what i believe, though, is that this love i sought does not exist. not in the pure sense i was hoping. i wish it weren't so, but interview/reading/life experience has taught me this: two men cannot 'make it work' as tim gunn would say. it's a sad but necessary conclusion to that which i seek. i'm not a pessimist. not even a bitter heart broken guy. more of a logical realist. i'm single and always have been. always will be. i just never wanted to make the mistake of my life unless i knew it was worth the risk. i don't think it is.

blogs are the first place i look on a profile because they give a window into that person's brain. pictures fade and are (undoubtedly) chosen carefully to represent only the best side of someone's aesthetic. mine certainly are... i'm not the sort who's expecting a response. i just wanted to put my two (or more) cents into your blog thought.

take care.

__shaneMark.
 

What is it, do you think, about "man with man" that is fundamentally different? There is clearly plenty of evidence that "man with woman" cannot 'make it work' either, as you say; at least not, perhaps, in the same 'pure' sense which you reference.

I am not convinced that man with man does not work, because I see no fundamental reason why it's different. I don't see why the physiology would matter to such a great degree. Certainly, this coupling presents its own unique set of circumstances and challenges. But how is it that, at the young and (pardon my bluntness) inexperienced age of 24, you could come to such a conclusion with any amount of certainty?

I would suggest that it's completely normal, at age 24, *not* to have experienced this depth of love. I think that very few actually *ever* achieve it ... but that doesn't mean it's not possible for those of us who work toward making ourselves the kind of person we wish to find.
 

(as promised...)

Well, as with any philosophical dispute (and the mechanics of romance, I believe, is philosophical), we must consider worldview. You and I could go round and round with this subject (which I’m all for, btw) and never come to agreement on the matter simply because we’re looking at the same sculpture from different angles…

So, here’s my problem with two guys together. (I could address two women, but that’s a softball of a different color with an entirely different set of problems – we won’t tackle that here {who would want to?}). You ask what is fundamentally different with two guys. I believe the difference is in how men and women are geared. Assuming that you have more than a brain stem, I’m not going to list examples of emotional differences between men and women. They’re evident. Not just because we’re ‘raised to act different’ --which I believe I a diaper load-- we’re different because we’re made different.

Here’s where worldview comes into play. If you believe in Godless evolution, then have at it. Sex it up, my friend. We’re here to live and die. If you believe we’re created (which I do) then we’re created for something… more to come on that later.

When a kid is left to his own vices to run amok in a candy store, there is nobody to balance his desire with logic. There is only the pursuit of candy and the acquisition of it. This is my impression of gay men (I’m generalizing here – deepest apologies if you’re one of the 0.5% of gay men who are not sex obsessed). I care not to enter a land where pleasure is The Law because as soon as I find someone worthy of my affection, he’s found somebody else to give his to. I’ll never measure up to the rest of the abs and faces. I don't even want to try.

I’m rambling and so will shorten the rest of what I was going to say so that you have the wherewithal to go with me on this thought:

There are two roles in relationships whether it’s intended or not. I like to think I’m masculine, but I’m not (although, I changed my tire the other night without so much as a hetero handing me the right tools, thank you muchly). Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care for women’s clothing or skip when I’m in a good mood. I’m just not MANLY. There’s a reason for that and I’m not convinced it’s genetic.

As far as experience goes – to finish my thoughts about your letter – I do not have to have partaken in sex to understand a great deal about it. There is a difference between experience and wisdom. Sexual experience I cannot offer. Wisdom about it, I most certainly can. I choose abstinence because of where I’m at and what I believe. I’m not self righteous or prude. I DO NOT think I’m better than other people because I abstain. I simply want to do what’s right with what I believe. I don’t have to feel love from a man to know that it will not solve my problems or be what I hoped it would be.

Sorry for the longwinded response. There’s a great deal inside me that rarely gets out. When it has the opportunity to do so, I’m grateful. It helps me sharpen what’s left of my brain.

__shaneMark.


--about the 24 thing. I’ll be 25 a week from today (Valentine’s Day, ironically) and the very fact that I’m counting my age by weeks does indicate that I have growing up to do, but as a whole, I’m quite a mature guy.
 

because so much is lost in translation, i’ll clarify some of what may be misunderstood...

please don’t confuse my devotion to beliefs with the notion that i have it all together. i speak with conviction not because i presume i am always right but because i always try to do the right thing. there’s a huge difference between pious christianity and devotion to God. a huge difference. i wanted to say that because it seems that i’m being perceived as someone who carries my bible and and a megaphone just in case i think God has a message for the street corner. that is not me.



(also, i don’t think that because i don’t have sex with men that i’m not gay. straight people are straight before they have sex and so is the same with me. i don’t think i’m some hybrid separate from you. we are the same. we just don’t do the same things - or people, rather)

i obviously don’t believe that because i can’t see something (i.e. requited love) that it doesn’t exist. i believe that if you are in love then so be it. it’s what you want and it makes you happy. maybe what i doubt is not the conviction of your love or it’s authenticity, but rather it’s appropriateness for me. i don’t want to be loved today and left tomorrow. reminiscent of my childhood? perhaps. but i still don’t want to be left in the dust for the hotter guy around the corner. from my scale on the gradient, that’s quite a possibility...

as far as church goes, i have no rebuttal for your opinion. i have my own set of issues with her. i do not, however, hide my fear behind the bible. i may hide it behind eating or low self-esteem, but the bible does not serve that purpose for me.

nice volley.
 

I continue to be impressed by your thoughts and the clarity with which you express them.

Please pardon me for my lack of clarity in this particular entry.  I'm eating dinner, watching Idol, and responding to you.  Multitasking will definitely take its toll on the quality of my writing.  So, I'll save us both the pain of it by being brief.

As for my reference to the inexperience associated with your age, I was referring not   to sex, but rather, to romance.  If you have a fundamental belief that you will not achieve romance, then you most assuredly will not.  One of the purposes of this blog is to offer some encouragement ... if only to myself.

But -- and I hate to say it -- I don't feel like you've answered my question.  What is it -- really -- which makes man and man impossible?  I would initially think, based on your self-proclaimed faith, that it might be related to how you interpret some particular law of the creator.  But if that were the case, then there would be no need to consider woman and woman an "entirely different softball".  It would be wrong, for the same reasons, nuff said.

I'd love to have a debate about the creator and homosexuality, but I don't want to put forth any opinions unless that is at the root of your dilemma in this regard.

Does it have more to do with "two roles"?  But even that I do not follow, given your desription of how (by design?) you are not "manly".  Well, even in your view of things, why can't a manly man and a not-so-manly-man make it?

P.S. - congrats on the tire.  How butch.

 

"I continue to be impressed by your thoughts and the clarity with which you express them" -- and i for yours, Dan.

if i said that true love between two men is impossible, then perhaps that was careless vocabulary. it's my downfall. maybe what i'm feeling is more that what's attainable is not going to make me happy. there's a lot more behind this synapse, so i'll save it for when i'm a bit more charged.

this morning i'm the conversational equivalent of a foreign exchange student. on top of having two deaths and another close call in the ER early this morning, my salad was brown and stale and i've had nothing but water and chick peas since yesterday. sadly, i'm not sure which i'm distraught about more (may they rest in peace).
 

--I’ve never been accused of having clarity of thought.

You mentioned that I never answered your question about the fundamental rightness or wrongness of same sex relationships. I’m afraid I can’t objectively answer that question. I’m a feeler. Damn us enFj people. It’s the F that gets me every time. Here’s what I Feel about some things:

In terms of romantic longevity, I don’t see gay guys stepping up to the plate. I see them having fun and not settling down. And when I hear of people settling down it’s often plagued with mistrust or infidelity. I hate to be repetitive (and I know you hate repetitive repetitiveness), but I admit that I’m generalizing here. There is no box that these thoughts fit neatly into, I’m afraid. Every time I bring up this point – which is not too often – I hear people say, “Well, my best friend’s uncle and his partner have been together for 20 years”. Everybody knows somebody who knows somebody who’s made it work. I don’t like those odds.

I do agree that the state of relationships is distressing and it’s not confined to the same-sex community. 6/10 marriages end in divorce (and that’s only based on straight stats!). I don’t think that heterosexual people are exempt from the peril of our societies values. We praise aesthetic and applaud selfishness – both gay and straight people do. Nobody ever seems to be thinking about what they are going to do when they are old and wrinkly. What will we be like when we’re old and NOBODY finds us attractive? What will we have to value then?


I worked with a guy named Clarence a few years back. He was the nursing supervisor of the hospital I worked at and he was a mentor for me, of sorts. I was a new nurse at the time and starting to grow into myself. On top of trying to boost my self-esteem, Clair tried desperately to reprogram my mind to allow for my own acceptance. I’m my own worst critic, admittedly. Ultimately being unsuccessful, he never stopped challenging my thinking and I appreciated that in him, but I always felt that he was wrong. Not because he slept with men but because of the way he looked at the world.

The other thing interesting about him was that he’d been in a relationship for over twenty years. Clair and John seemed to have it all right: convertible, big house, travel life, fidelity. And yet, something still seemed sad about their relationship. The way they both would admit that if they had the opportunity, they would have had sex with a lot more men when they were younger. “Do it now while you still look good, Shane” Clair would say. There was an air of desperation to their whole way of life…

They both quit their jobs and moved to Costa Rica and opened a bed and breakfast about two years ago. Sounds like they’re doing okay. I get e-mails from Clarence saying how beautiful life is down there… I wish them all the happiness in the world. It sounds kind of storybook, what they’re doing now. I just don’t want to trade lives with them.

I don’t know what I want out of life. I know what I don’t want, but it’s easier to determine what you don’t want than what you do. I recently made some sacrifices so that I could afford an internship this summer. It’s taking place in Kenya and it will be for nine weeks – helping with HIV education and a number of other things. It sounds almost benevolent and pious at first, but I love the idea that it will be something greater than me. Something outside my world and myself. People won’t care what I look like or what I wear. They just care that somebody’s there. To me, that’s better than running a bed and breakfast with the man of my dreams.
 

you misunderstand me greatly, drew.
 

Knowing well that my thoughts have run their course on this subject and fearing that I’ve worn out my welcome on this blogversation, I’m cautious of proceeding any further. My friend, Sonia, encouraged me last week to seek to understand instead of seeking to be understood and she’s completely right. We all want to be understood and so that’s all we focus on when we have had discourse like that above. When you asked me, Andrew, “Rather than argue your point, simply think about what I say here and think of something more”, I did that. I hope, but not expect, that your attention is requited.

First thinking that your thoughts were directed toward me, I was admittedly irritated. But now, reading over them, I see that your thoughts are directed at all the mindless Christians who have spoken inappropriately for Jesus Christ over many years. You may associate me with these people and I can’t blame you. Just as wrong as it would be for me to stereotype you by those who are similar to you, it would for you to assume that I ascribe to dogmatic Christianity. Reading your words, I refuse to put you in a box and I ask that you see I don’t fit there as well.

Jesus disagreed without hatred and so can I. One of the problems with Christians today (if not the biggest) is that they don’t truly seek to understand who Jesus was or what he was like. I myself understand very little about him, but I’d be closed-minded if I didn’t think he was the kind of person I’d want to be like. If Christians attempted to be like Christ (which isn’t a far leap, his very name is in their title: CHRISTian), then they wouldn’t make signs that say, “God hates fags”. They wouldn’t have been using God’s word as a piss poor excuse as to why they killed Matthew Sheppard many years ago. They wouldn’t make nasty comments to you when you’re out with your boyfriend. Christ didn’t do that and I’d doubt the devotion of anyone who claims to follow him yet holds contempt for the gay community. I believe that Jesus was and is the ultimate humanitarian and deep lover of people, not just people that believed in him.

There are very few verses in the bible that address homosexuality. There are many more about money, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor etc. We’re all guilty of not doing these, so why is homosexuality such a big point of contention? One of the reasons is because (I believe), the church has disproportionately exemplified homosexuality as the ‘worst’ sin. Why would they do that when scripture so clearly doesn’t address that much at all? I think it’s because they’re scared and frightened by what they don’t know.

I crave authenticity. I long to be recognized and heard. I hate when I’m misunderstood. I’d be surprised to find out you don’t as well. These traits lead me to despise hypocrisy and avoid church more often than most Christians I know… so why stay with it? I have my reasons. None of which are fear or self-hatred.

I abhor religious dogmatism and closed-minded people, so the picture of Christianity that you so deplore, I cannot defend. I don’t own that kind of faith and so cannot be its defender. I can defend the teachings of Jesus because that’s what my passion is, but as far as I can tell, we don’t disagree there.

I’m sorry if anyone who claims this faith has been personally ugly to you and I’m sorry for the contempt our church as a whole has broadcast against you. I am not that kind of person and I don’t think Jesus was either.