I thought that was a wonderful, thought provoking post....I am an atheist and do not hold religion in the strongest regard but would like to add one positive story that fits this post....I have a few very religious friends who have a band, and they have been going out of their way to avoid being labeled a "Christian Band" because they find the label ridiculous....so there's still some intelligence left in the religous masses.
 

Hey dude.  Heard about your blog through AbsolutePunk.net and figured I'd give it a read-through.  To start off, I am a very strong believer in Christianity, though maybe not the way most of our Western world has tainted it.  I am also a touring (though independent) musician, so I know a lot of where you're coming from, and I will say that I agree with almost everything you said.

The first thing I must disagree with you on is the statement that, "I don't believe it matters one bit" when referring to whether or not there is a God.  Now, I suppose if you are positive that there is no God, then this would be the case.  However, you have said "I no longer have a desire to find the truth as to whether or not there is a God," implying that you are unsure about God's existence.  In this case I would say that it matters more than anything if there is a God or not.  Because if, in fact, this God does exist, then your eternal fate is hinged upon your life choices.  I am not saying you have to believe that your life choices will determine your eternity, but if you are leaving the option of an existing God open, then there is a possibility of the existence of God making all the difference in the world.

Secondly, I disagree with the statement, "The suggestions that you would need to accept Jesus as your personal savior or even need the promise of a heaven in order to be a good person strikes me as absurd."  I know that much of the Western world has painted a picture that conveys this message, but Christianity, as taught by Christ himself, does not send this message.  In my personal opinion, many of the "best" people in the world have been (and are) non-Christians (examples: Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the top ambassadors of peace in history and Bill Gates, who has dedicated most of his self-earned, world's largest fortune to fighting world poverty).  I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are Christians and non-Christians that are amazing people.  There are also Christians (or at least people who claim to be Christians) who I believe are terrible people (best example: George W. Bush, for reasons we all know).

Other than those two points, I strongly agree with you on the other issues.  Christianity, like everything else in our society, has become commercialized.  To many people, it's more of a business than a religion.  Kudos to you on this blog.  Take care.

Joel French

 

I'm jewish and don't know all that much about Christianity but I do manage the band Underoath and I know that they do not fit into this sterotype you are writing about.

Onstage they thank jesus and and they also say if you don't belive in him they respect you just as much. Not only do they say it onsatge but they live that way two.

 I have been freinds with them for a few years before I managed them and not once have they judged me on my relgious belifes. I agree with 99% of what you wrote and the Underoath guys would too.  It's disapointing to see you talk crap about a band that actually has similar issues with bands using Christinaty to twist things and unfailry judge people.

There are countless bands out there that do fit into the stereotypes you are talking about. Next time pick one that fits it not the band that is trying to break down those walls!

Randy Nichols

 

Randy..

I recently read an article in Alternative Press in which Tim McTague stated that he was opposed to homosexuals.

How is that respecting people that choose not to live a christian life or believe in christian ideals just as much christians themselves ?

 

not 'opposed' to homosexuals, tim said he didn't agree with it.  Also said he had homosexual friends.  fat mike tried to make him look like a bigot because his band needed more attention and being fat and dumb is the only way he knew how to do it... so everyone made a big deal out of nothing. example: i don't agree with my friends doing cocaine, it's their personal choice, but that doesn't make me a bigot, and i don't judge them for it, it's not my place, just like tim.
 

you don't seem to understand the difference between "disagreeing" with something like cocaine use versus homosexuality. doing something like using cocaine is a choice. if you're gay, you are naturally attracted to members of the same sex and not to members of the opposite sex. it's not a choice that the person is making for some perceived pleasure the way doing a drug is. for someone to say that they're ok with homosexuality but that they "disagree" with it or think it's "wrong" just goes to show how ignorant that person is and how brainwashed they are by the christain right which would have people believe that gay people are A. evil and B. evil by choice. could you imagine how hurt you would be if it was constantly implied by people who claimed to be your friends that they sympathize with you but that they still basically consider you some sort of freak of nature? you know i also met a christian drummer on tour with a confederate flag tattoo who said "i'm not racist or nothin', i just don't like black people". is that a sentiment you would agree with as well, clint?

-josh

 

Could you quote what he said? I'd like to see how it was worded and perhaps the context it was used in.

 

I'd like to start by saying I enjoyed the blog. I don't agree with it all, but it was well written.

-I know that you barely touched on the subject, but I do not agree when people say hardcore/punk is a place for left wing/non-religious people only. Hardcore was once a place for outcasts to come together and feel like they had a home. It was a place where opinions were respected, at the very least. NO ONE should ever be pushed out of hardcore, especially for standing up for something they believe in. If we feel in our hearts that we connect with the hardcore community on any levels, then we all belong, for whatever reason.
-This brings me to my next point, which you also pointed out. Some "Christians"(and the same could be said for some hardcore/punk kids) seem to be following a trend and are just along for the ride. All I can really say is, perhaps that's true. For the hardcore kids, I feel that even if hardcore being trendy makes just 1 kid get seriously into hardcore, then it was worth it. Even if 999 out of 1000 kids are gone 6 months from now, it's good to have 1 more who feels like he truely belongs. On the Christian side, I believe in God, so my feeling that is God knows your heart. You can act like you follow and worship the Lord, but if you are really just following and worshipping a band/your friends/a trend, then God will know how you truely feel in your heart of hearts. As it was said in a previous comment, "Judge lest ye be judged"
I feel it was unfair to say that Christian bands are only selling a trend. Sure, there are bands out there who are simply selling something they don't honestly believe, but there are certainly bands out there who believe what they say. Sadly, there are bands out there that are selling a view of Christianity that is not what Jesus lived.
You say you know the Bible like the back of your hand, and I'm not doubting or questioning that, but you should know that Jesus(whether you find him fictional or real) lived a life full of love for all people. It does bother me to see a band claim Christianity and then preach the hatred of "Believe or go to hell", "If you are homosexual you can't be Christian", and the like. It's even worse when these people do not practice what they preach. What they need to remember is "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". It was Jesus who said that "the taxcollectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of Heaven before you(his own disciples)".(Matthew 21:31). Once again, it is up to you to believe whether or not Jesus was real, but the Jesus that I believe in was a god of LOVE, not hate.
-Your experiences with Christians on this tour....
1-Christians refusing to buy your non-christian merch? I'm sorry, I try not to be judgemental about religious affiliations with bands, but some people are. Let's not forget about all the people who refuse to by merch from Christian bands simply because they are Christian. I've even run into trouble of people not respecting my band(a non-christian band) simply because in my PERSONAL life I choose to go to Church. It's a two way street.
2-Cracked windshield....Once again, I'm sorry to hear you ran into problems with kids. I'm even more sorry that it came from a "Christian", because you are exactly right, that was a very UNCHRISTIAN thing to do, and I'm upset that this lost person has tainted peoples views of Christianity.

Just a few weeks ago I had the priveledge of seeing Bane live. During the set, Aaron gave a speech, and in his speech he said something that has stuck with me, and will stick with me for a long time. This scene has become divided and segregated, but even if you are the only person standing up for what you believe, never stop standing up for it. If it's in your heart and in your mind, then it's worth every battle you have to fight.
I will never stop standing up for my right to be a Christian in the hardcore scene. It's a battle worth fighting for, I feel I belong here. I just hope that along the way I am able to change a few minds to, at the very least, see that there are some decent Christians out there. There really are some good Christians out there.


 

I couldn't agree with you more. And that's all I have to say about that.
 

Never listened to your band and just read this off a news post on ap.net. I think it's possibly one of the most intelligent pieces of writing on myspace.

The whole Christian thing is interesting. If you look at a band like mewithoutYou they are absolutely dedicated to the following. Aaron keeps no money, shares everything. The band didn't even mind when someone stole a Gibson guitar of theirs the other week. I think if you follow the true ideals of christanity then perhaps what you have to say is more valid.

It seems there are a lot more scene bands that only use the Christianity thing as a label and this upsets me. I think Underoath are genuine in their faith.

I'm not going to ramble (no-ones going to read this anyway) but I believe at the end of the day whatever you choose to do, be genuine to it and follow your ideals. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

aliciamakesgraves,

Why can't someone feel sometone is wrong and still respect them? I have an intern that works for me who I care alot about and would love to hire one day who I also consider a good freind but I oppose almost every political opinion that comes out of his mouth (he also interns for Sean Hannity so he's a bit brainwashed).

My point is you can oppose something and disagree with someone and still have much respect for them.

 

im reposting my response to clint for you randy because i really have a problem with what people like you say. something like a political opinion you can disagree with someone over and still respect them you know it's a conscious choice that they're making. if you're gay, you are naturally attracted to members of the same sex and not to members of the opposite sex. it's not a choice that the person is making based on their knowledge of the world the way a political opinion is. for someone to say that they're ok with homosexuality but that they "disagree" with it or think it's "wrong" just goes to show how ignorant that person is and how brainwashed they are by the christain right which would have people believe that gay people are A. evil and B. evil by choice. could you imagine how hurt you would be if it was constantly implied by people who claimed to be your friends that they sympathize with you but that they still basically consider you some sort of freak of nature? it's the same difference as saying you disagree with someone for using cocaine versus, for example, saying you "disagree" with someone for being mexican. do you understand?

-josh

 

"Christianity is right wing so it doesn't belong in the generally leftist ideals of punk music (although a case could be made)"

I'm a Christian and I'm leftist and into punk and hardcore...
Just because many Christian leaders are right winged, doesnt make their position "correct", nor does it make the stereotype true.

 

I have never listened to your band but, wow. I could not agree with you more. It's disgusting how Christianity is manipulated and forced on the scene.
 

It would be sorely tempting to comment on the material in your essay. I am Christian, Buddhist and on some level Taoist in my thinking, and as anyone can imagine, I have a lot to say.

Instead I want to say a few things on the substance:

First and foremost, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Whether it be Christians in punk music or the opposing view, nobody can inherently say its wrong, as it is a matter of perception. While I do not evangelize and I feel the whole concept of it is flawed, I must also respect the views of those who do, for they feel that their security and spiritual growth requires it of them.

Secondly, while those Christian bands and kids who follow the scene may go over the top (and they do, Ive been victimized by it for not being a "true Christian", almost to the point of violence, which is something Jesus himself would have been appalled by), there are an equal number who take their faith as personal, and are pleased when bands espouse their own values and ethics (On my label we have more than a few who are Christian, but do not go around preaching it.) Religion in any form (including atheistic beliefs in science and secular order) acts as both a moral and spiritual compass, which adds depth to a person's life and meaning to their action, and truth to these values makes for a productive person.

Finally, in regards to blind faith and the concept of "following the leader", such things are an inevitable part of life. People either develop their own system of beliefs and use them in symbiosis with their own lives, or they simply do what others tell them to do. This is true in all aspects of human life, not just religion and the arts. I hate to say you need to go with the flow, but sometimes its necessary.

In any case, I think your views were quite eloquently phrased, and it's great to see people thinking these days and using words and polite action instead of threats and insults. I'll look you guys up if you ever play NYC. And I'll even buy some merch too.

 

Im sorry but some things you have said are seemingly hypocritical. For one thing you said christianity" can be isolating and denigrating towards those raised or believing differently." but then you stated that you got up on stage and did just that. Notice that you didn't say you made "jokes" about the band making bad music. no you "joked" about their faith, what they happened to believe and then you were "surprised" I think you knew exactly what you were doing by getting up on stage and doing what you did, but then you call their behavior "disgraceful"?. You said that,"Punk music and the venues that promote punk, began, and still can be, a place for people ostracized from the mainstream or needing a different outlet for their emotions." but you just said IN YOUR OWN WORDS that you created an enviroment that is not condusive to that. not very "good human being" of you know was it?

my point is that it doesnt matter if you are christian of atheiest or jewish or a "good human being" we were all given (rather you choose to believe that it was by god or mother nature or whatever) the knowledge of the differences between right and wrong and the free will to choose which one to do and sometime no matter our beliefs we choose to do the wrong thing. every religion and lack of pretty much agrees that we as humans are not perfect, we all make mistakes but when am human being does falter they should not be stereotyped by that mistake according to anything other than the fact that we are human,therefore not perfect, therefore prone to make them.

if your post had been a generalization on black people instead of one christians you would be bombarded with posts deeming you a racist. I find it funny that you are able to stereotype christianity based on the actions of a few people who happened to call themselves christians and people actually agree with you? THAT my friend is whats wrong with the world.
 

um no, not really. i don't think will's being a hypocrite at all. i'll use your own example. if the majority of the black people living in the US banded together and created some sort of organization which starting spreading the message that homosexuals are evil, my jewish and atheist friends are going to hell, the dinosaurs didn't exist, etc., and furthermore gained significant political power to the point that they could actually influence national policy with these beliefs, i'd be pretty pissed off at them too. you're right that all people should be judged based on their OWN actions and beliefs. but when a single person claims allegiance to and spreads the word of a group that promotes intolerance, even if only in subtle ways, and even if only for what is in idea a good cause, then i'd say that yes you're still being fair in lumping them in with the beliefs and actions of that overall group that they represent and condemning what you don't like about them. even for someone to be the sort of ideal christian that you are speaking of , i mean someone who really treats everyone totally fairly, you can say with certainty that they still, for example, believe that they are going to heaven, whereas someone else who behaves exactly the same as them in all respects except believing that jesus is the lord, is going to hell. i think that's fucked up. if you really treat everyone fairly then you should believe that all good people will be judged equally or have the same fate. if i were a christian, i would say that all good people go to heaven regardless of their faith and all bad people go to hell regardless of their faith. but correct me if im wrong, wouldn't refuting the idea that only believers in jesus can go to heaven make me not a christian? i mean if i were arguing with you about this totally apart from the context of this conversation, wouldn't you, as a christian, insist that i was wrong and tell me to look it up in the bible to see for myself?

-josh

 

My example was that Will was stereotyping an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. that is just plain wrong. That exact thinking is the reason for slavery, the halocaust, hate crimes, etc....the Majority of christians do not do what you accuse them of doing (thinking gay people are evil, dinosaurs never existed?!, and that everyone but them are going to hell) that is just NOT the case and it is as ignorant for him to believe that all black people are (insert popular stereotype here) than for him to think that christianity is what he said it was. I was pointing out that he preached one thing, but did another. that by definition is hypocrisy.

I was not speaking of an ideal christian either. instead I was pointing out that no one is a perfect human being" and therefore can not be a perfect christian and that anyone who had wronged him was not doing so in the context of being a bad christian but as an imperfect human being making a mistake. Look at it this way Police are expected to follow the law but there are lots of police who break the law everyday, not because all policemen are bad but because a few people who happen to be police choose to break the law. any christian worth his salt knows the golden rules, "judge not lest you be judged" "and to love and treat others as you would want to be treated" if they are doing something that contridicts those edicts they are doing so of that free-will I was talking about.

and just to educate you a little bit (because you seem to have been misinformed on a few issues)
1. chrisitan believe that the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. not that homosexuals are evil and not even that they are going to hell. everyone is to be judged on their own merits by god and no one else gets an input on that) refer back to those golden rules and abide by them.
2. Who ever said Christians don't believe in dinosaurs?! that threw me for a loop. If you meant Darwinism or the big band theory then Chrisitans do not believe that people were once Apes. We come from Adam and Eve and believe in the creation story. Science has not proved any of those theories so until there is irrefuttable evidence of one or the other-to each his own.
3. Christians were taught that God said that ALL OF US were his children and made in his likeness. When he said no one came come to me but through my son he sent his son down here to suffer and die on the cross for mans sin. anyone can now come to God-no matter there beliefs as I said before christians believe that we will all be judged by our own merits and being a christian isnt an automatic ticket into heaven nor is not being one an automatic ticket to hell there not even a plus or minus on "the books" there are commandments that we were all given to live by and even if you don't believe in god those things (thou shall not kill,etc) are things good moral humans with any sort of morals or ethics would abide by anyway does it really matter if you believe that a higher power or your own instinct telss you what those right and wrong things are?).

and my last point is that it is NEVER EVER FAIR to lump a group of people together that is where intolerance hatred, racism, sexism, etc... comes from. it is plain ignorance. You said, "when a single person claims allegiance to and spreads the word of a group that promotes intolerance, even if only in subtle ways, and even if only for what is in idea a good cause, then i'd say that yes you're still being fair in lumping them in with the beliefs and actions of that overall group that they represent". well by that theory it is okay for me to hate you as a punk band because you tour the country playing a form of punk music just because there are some nazi skinhead punk bands out there doing the same thing right?

wrong so wrong.

this is not an admonishment to you or Will so I hope you don;t take it as one but these ideals and beliefs that you hold are ignorant (not in the stupid-ass but in the uneducated of misinformed form) and dangerous. and that is not okay and if I can help you to see that or to at least give you a reason to question that thinking I need to do it, just like if you run across person who is doing all those things you accuse most chrisitans of doing you will say something to them to stop them from walking through this world with that hatred and misunderstanding in their hearts.
 

Well, I do feel it's unfair. As I have stated before, Jesus taught love, and Christians are followers of Christ. It's sad that most Christians don't promote love, but it's not fair to say that no christians promote love because not all do.
Let's use homosexuality as an example, since it has been so widely discussed here. I think homosexual behavior is a sin. Do you know what else is a sin? Lust, which I struggle with. I'm a sinner. Everyone is a sinner, and the Bible says a sin is a sin is a sin. Homosexuals are no more wrong than I am, we both sin.
It's not my place, or anyone else's place, to judge whether or not someone will go to heaven. I think people should focus more on their walk with God as opposed to another persons walk with God.

 

"if your post had been a generalization on black people instead of one christians you would be bombarded with posts deeming you a racist. I find it funny that you are able to stereotype christianity based on the actions of a few people who happened to call themselves christians and people actually agree with you? THAT my friend is whats wrong with the world."

This was a good point, but you should run your post through some sort of spell check, or at least proofread it, before posting. It wad quite the headache to sort through.

 

Thanks for thinking that was a good point. I accidentally hit the post button before I was finished. If you had scrolled down a little more, you wouldn't have needed that advil : ]
 

Im sorry but some things you have said are seemingly hypocritical. For one thing you said christianity" can be isolating and denigrating towards those raised or believing differently." but then you stated that you got up on stage and did just that. Notice that you didn't say you made "jokes" about the band making bad music. no you "joked" about their faith, what they happened to believe and I think you knew exactly what you were doing by getting up on stage and doing what you did, but then you call their behavior "disgraceful"?. You said that,"Punk music and the venues that promote punk, began, and still can be, a place for people ostracized from the mainstream or needing a different outlet for their emotions." but you just said IN YOUR OWN WORDS that you created an enviroment that is not condusive to that. not very "good human being" of you now was it?
my point is that it doesnt matter if you are christian, atheiest,jewish, or a "good human being" we were all given (rather you choose to believe that it was by god or mother nature or whatever) the knowledge of the differences between right and wrong and the free will to choose which one to do. sometime no matter our beliefs we choose to do the wrong thing. every religion (and lack of) pretty much agrees that we as humans are not perfect, we all make mistakes but when a human being does falter they should not be stereotyped by those bad judgements according to anything other than the fact that we are human (therefore not perfect, therefore prone to make maistakes)

if your post had been a stereotype on black people instead of one on christians you would be bombarded with posts deeming you a racist. I find it funny that you are able to generalize christianity based on the actions of a few people (who happened to call themselves christians) and people actually agree with you?

THAT my friend is whats wrong with the world. Open-mindedness is not about being able to "see past" religion, race, or gender. It is about "seeing" through them to the Human being inside those labels and on that point (baesd on your blog) you are failing miserably. but I forgive you for that. after all your just a human. just like me.
 

um no, not really. i don't think will's being a hypocrite at all. i'll use your own example. if the majority of the black people living in the US banded together and created some sort of organization which starting spreading the message that homosexuals are evil, my jewish and atheist friends are going to hell, the dinosaurs didn't exist, etc., and furthermore gained significant political power to the point that they could actually influence national policy with these beliefs, i'd be pretty pissed off at them too. you're right that all people should be judged based on their OWN actions and beliefs. but when a single person claims allegiance to and spreads the word of a group that promotes intolerance, even if only in subtle ways, and even if only for what is in idea a good cause, then i'd say that yes you're still being fair in lumping them in with the beliefs and actions of that overall group that they represent and condemning what you don't like about them. even for someone to be the sort of ideal christian that you are speaking of , i mean someone who really treats everyone totally fairly, you can say with certainty that they still, for example, believe that they are going to heaven, whereas someone else who behaves exactly the same as them in all respects except believing that jesus is the lord, is going to hell. i think that's fucked up. if you really treat everyone fairly then you should believe that all good people will be judged equally or have the same fate. if i were a christian, i would say that all good people go to heaven regardless of their faith and all bad people go to hell regardless of their faith. but correct me if im wrong, wouldn't refuting the idea that only believers in jesus can go to heaven make me not a christian? i mean if i were arguing with you about this totally apart from the context of this conversation, wouldn't you, as a christian, insist that i was wrong and tell me to look it up in the bible to see for myself?

-josh

 

My example was that Will was stereotyping an entire group of people based on the actions of a few. that is just plain wrong. That exact thinking is the reason for slavery, the halocaust, hate crimes, etc....the Majority of christians do not do what you accuse them of doing (thinking gay people are evil, dinosaurs never existed?!, and that everyone but them are going to hell) that is just NOT the case and it is as ignorant for him to believe that all black people are (insert popular stereotype here) than for him to think that christianity is what he said it was. I was pointing out that he preached one thing, but did another. that by definition is hypocrisy.

I was not speaking of an ideal christian either. instead I was pointing out that no one is a perfect human being" and therefore can not be a perfect christian and that anyone who had wronged him was not doing so in the context of being a bad christian but as an imperfect human being making a mistake. Look at it this way Police are expected to follow the law but there are lots of police who break the law everyday, not because all policemen are bad but because a few people who happen to be police choose to break the law. any christian worth his salt knows the golden rules, "judge not lest you be judged" "and to love and treat others as you would want to be treated" if they are doing something that contridicts those edicts they are doing so of that free-will I was talking about.

and just to educate you a little bit (because you seem to have been misinformed on a few issues)
1. chrisitan believe that the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. not that homosexuals are evil and not even that they are going to hell. everyone is to be judged on their own merits by god and no one else gets an input on that) refer back to those golden rules and abide by them.
2. Who ever said Christians don't believe in dinosaurs?! that threw me for a loop. If you meant Darwinism or the big band theory then Chrisitans do not believe that people were once Apes. We come from Adam and Eve and believe in the creation story. Science has not proved any of those theories so until there is irrefuttable evidence of one or the other-to each his own.
3. Christians were taught that God said that ALL OF US were his children and made in his likeness. When he said no one came come to me but through my son he sent his son down here to suffer and die on the cross for mans sin. anyone can now come to God-no matter there beliefs as I said before christians believe that we will all be judged by our own merits and being a christian isnt an automatic ticket into heaven nor is not being one an automatic ticket to hell there not even a plus or minus on "the books" there are commandments that we were all given to live by and even if you don't believe in god those things (thou shall not kill,etc) are things good moral humans with any sort of morals or ethics would abide by anyway does it really matter if you believe that a higher power or your own instinct telss you what those right and wrong things are?).

and my last point is that it is NEVER EVER FAIR to lump a group of people together that is where intolerance hatred, racism, sexism, etc... comes from. it is plain ignorance. You said, "when a single person claims allegiance to and spreads the word of a group that promotes intolerance, even if only in subtle ways, and even if only for what is in idea a good cause, then i'd say that yes you're still being fair in lumping them in with the beliefs and actions of that overall group that they represent". well by that theory it is okay for me to hate you as a punk band because you tour the country playing a form of punk music just because there are some nazi skinhead punk bands out there doing the same thing right?

wrong so wrong.

this is not an admonishment to you or Will so I hope you don;t take it as one but these ideals and beliefs that you hold are ignorant (not in the stupid-ass but in the uneducated of misinformed form) and dangerous. and that is not okay and if I can help you to see that or to at least give you a reason to question that thinking I need to do it, just like if you run across person who is doing all those things you accuse most chrisitans of doing you will say something to them to stop them from walking through this world with that hatred and misunderstanding in their hearts.
 

1. if you believe the ACT of homosexuality is a sin, then you're still saying homosexuality is wrong. all im hearing from you and others on this board over and over again is how you think homosexuality is wrong but for some reason you shouldn't personally have to take any shit for saying so (i have no problem with homosexuals, i just think it's wrong...  homosexuality isn't a sin, but the ACT...). take responsibility for what you're saying may. however you rephrase it, you and others are saying, right here on this message board, that homosexuality is wrong. think about this: would a perfect god ever EVER condemn two people for being in love? how could the physical act of love between two people who are in love with each other EVER be a crime? why is lust a sin? do christians not like sex? do they not know how to have good sex? i just don't understand. i know, it just says it in the bible and you blindly follow whatever the bible says, i get that. what im saying is you should really question your faith sometimes because faith by definition is choosing to blindly follow something without thinking about it. how can you support this as a philosophical choice?

2. how can you, in the same sentence, say oh, of course we believe in dinosaurs, we just believe in the creation story instead of evolution?? you seriously, seriously believe that all humans came from adam and eve? what happens when you bone your hot cousin? common knowledge here: the kids will come out drooling and banging their fists against their chests. so you have these two people at the beginning of time or whatever and they have kids and then their kids have kids with each other (we're talking hot brother on sister action) and then their kids hook up with each other on and on down the line.... you get where im going with this..  a planet of drooling retards!! no!! and what of all the others races of humans? impossible!! ill bet you think jesus was white, too! adam and eve, like so much else in the bible is MYTHOLOGY!!! it is a story meant to explain in a fun, wholesome, entertaining way something that people had no way of understanding thousands of years ago!! evolution is a pretty damn sound theory. maybe you can find some loopholes in it, but the adam and eve story sure as shit doesn't even come close to being a viable alternative. i mean seriously, you're talking nursery rhymes! did the little engine that could really happen?? how about teddy ruxbin? remember when the christian church taught that the sun revolved around the earth? that one i guess was a little too obvious for people to keep swallowing so they just let that one go, it's really sad that people are still buying the adam and eve story though, i mean, come on.

3. you're absolutely right on this one. it doesn't matter at all whether you believe in god or not. it's not GOD thats makes people moral but rather the naturally occuring phenomenon of EMPATHY. the fact that people all over the world have invented their own religions with their own books and their own myths doesn't go to show that there are thousands of different gods, nor does it go to show that there is one real god and thousands of others cultures are just plain wrong, it goes to show that humans have a natural tendency to INVENT gods and myths to explain the world around them. jesus was a nice mediterranean jewish boy who spread hope and love to an oppressed people. he didn't die for our sins, he was killed by the roman government because he was in essence leading a popular revolt and that made him dangerous. later, others used his legend to gain power for themselves. for how many thousands of years afterwards did the church see fit to kill anyone who threatened their power by labeling them as heretics? or what of the missionaries who enslaved and killed native americans, aztecs, africans, all in the name of the lord? do you see how christianity let them justify all those actions so that they could gain power for themselves and not have the common folk from their own societies think they were being monsters? it's the same thing everywhere at all times throughout the history of humanity; people in power obtain and maintain their power by playing on the fears, guilts, and if possible the stupidity of those below them. religion has always been used by governments for these purposes.

4. would it be fair for you to call me a nazi punk if im just a regular punk? no. that's a poor analogy for what im saying. if i told you that i was a nazi but that im not one of those OTHER nazis who do all the bad things that give us GOOD NAZIS a bad name, what would you say? if i was like, yeah, im not intolerant or nothin, i just think that the jews are all sinners and that theyll go to hell if they dont repent, what would you say? what im saying is that even when you reduce christianity to the most bare bones beliefs that all christians share, there are still a lot of inherent contradictions, areas of intolerance, and above all, an opposition to rational thought, all backed up by an intricate web of excuses as to why it's okay for you to, for example, perpetuate homophobia and dark-age science.

-josh

 

whoops sorry, accidentally hit post too soon. sorry about the double post.
 

Very interesting blog, things I agree with and things I disagree with.  First, I will agree with the fact that the term "Christian" in music is being marketed the wrong way.  I am a very strong Christian (and in the true sense, believe in one Savior, Jesus Christ, and have accepted Him and only believe in Him - sorry if that offends people) but I do not think it is bands using the name to jump on a trend, but simply misinformed bands on what the term Christian means.  I have been in the Christian HXC/underground scene since the mid-late 90's when bands like Underoath and Norma Jean were just getting their start.  These bands have always stuck to what they believe and have never changed that.  I have watched Christian HXC rise to the top in talent and popularity simply because there are some really good bands that truly are Christians.  However in the last 2-3 years, I have noticed how "Christian" has turned from a religion to a genre.  I was in bands for years and now have a recording studio and a record label and work with tons of bands.  Many of these bands claim to be Christian, but when trying to get further in to discussion, I find that they have no idea what Christianity is all about let alone that Jesus is the center of it.  My point to all of this is the fact that Christian has become a genre in music (and I am not talking about CCM (Christian Contemporary Music) which has been around since the 70's).  I get kids that tell me they are a Christian band just as if they would say they are a Metal band.  To kids these days, Christianity is a genre.  I would not look down on bands like Underoath that truly know what they believe.  And yes, I have seen way to many bands that say they are Christian but have no idea what it means, but that comes along with the rise of such bands like Underoath.  It is both a blessing and a curse.

I tend to disagree with a lot that you said and much of it is hypocritical and misinformed about Christianity.  I could go on and on but here are some of your major errors.

You cannot say you were a Christian at one point if you were Catholic cause they are two completely different religions.  While Jesus is a big part of both religions, they are very different.  Oh, and if you didnt know they use completely different Bibles (some stuff is the same, but a lot is different) so you can't say you know the "Christian Bible" you know the Catholic Bible...you might want to check out the Christian Bible to see how they vary.

I don't see how you can say that you don't think there is a God now when you said that you can figure out what is "right and wrong".  If there was no God, then what would be the point of right and wrong.  Everyone should do what they please if there is no higher power to account for.

As far as the homosexuality debate, I believe that it is a sin just like someone else stated above.  That does not mean that I do not love these people.  We all sin and everyone has their own struggles.  The Bible does tell people to love all men regardless of who they are, but it also says homosexuality, anger, lust, lying, cheating, etc, etc are wrong.  For some reason, homosexuality strikes a chord with people and they think Christians hate gays/lesbians when the truth is they dislike the sin just like they dislike the sin of someone that cheats on their wife.  I know this will stir up some controversy but I will say it.  I believe that people can have tendencies toward homosexuality, but it is ultimately a choice for them to do it or not just like someone has the tendency to be an alcoholic but must make the choice to not do it.  I believe people can genetically be bent toward it, but it is still a choice.  God did not say life was going to be easy or free from temptation.  It is easy to just say I was born this way (and that includes any sin) but it is another thing to resist it.  I would love to see any documented facts that say homosexuality is genetic and that you are born with it but I have yet to find it.  Also, I have yet to hear one true Christian say that they hate gays or that gay people are evil.  I think people can easily throw that out just because they are angered that Christianity finds it as a sin.

The point to all this is, I am sorry to hear that you were hurt by "Christians".  The fact of the matter is that they probably weren't really Christians and it is easy to blame a religion that stands up for what is right when you are angry with people.  The Bible says in the last days of earth, there will be many false prophets that claim to be of God.  I encourage you to look into Christianity (not Catholicism) to see what it really says before you jump to huge conclussions about people or even bands like Underoath.  God is a God of love, but He does require devotion to Him and obstaining from the things that he commands us to stay away from.

 

Okay, although I have been reading all of these posts and keeping up with the heated and certainly educated debate here, I made a decision not to make any posts because: 1) It would be impossible for me to sum up the many opinions I hold about organized religion in general; 2) I disagree with the necessary focus on Christianity here (although I realize it stems from Will's experiences with CHRISTIAN bands, and not otherwise) where I feel like the bigger issue is with, as I said, religion taken literally in general; 3) Let them fight it out, I don't care. But after reading this post I felt the need to respond, in the shortest and simplest sense, to the outright ignorance towards homosexuality that so many posts are saturated with. As I said, I will keep it short and simple, so please don't think that my words here are the extent of my position on the issue. For one, as far as studies regarding "documented facts that say homosexuality is genetic and that you are born with it", I would suggest you look here: http://www.stopanimaltests.com/f-gaysheep.asp , to a study which (While I violently disagree with it, not only because I am a vegan but because of the arrogance of the assumption that gay people need to be changed) in fact has sought out and to some remote extent found genetic evidence of homosexuality. And when you do that, why don't you note the biggest concern on behalf of many of the people opposing it. No, it's not just about the cruelty to animals, it's about the inhumane argument that homosexuality is wrong and is in some way a type of disorder. I just find that funny, considering that you, who claims to be a Christian and to not have any problems with homosexuals, except that they are inherent sinners of course, are actually anxious to find that there IS a genetic component to homosexuality to somehow validate its practitioners in the eyes of the church. Being a good Christain, and subsquently (I should hope), a good person, why are you so much more concerned with seeking an explanation as to homosexuals' actions than wondering why so many would subject themselves to the endless tension, violence (Matthew Shephard), rejection, scrutiny, discomfort, judgement, etc. associated with being gay (Openly or not), just by choice. When YOU sin (Since many have pointed out, in some effort to justfiy their assessment of the act of homosexuality as sinning, that of course we ALL sin, CHRISTIANS sin, lust and greed and sloth etc. are sins), are you not making the decision because you have been tempted to do so? Are sins not committed because there is some ultimate reward for the sinner (sexual satisfaction, money, power, ANYTHING) in the short term that, in Christianity, is of course held up to the ultimate long-term reward of not sinning? Is that not WHY sins are considered sins?
What temptation is there in rejection?
In violent hate-crimes?
In having your private life both condemned and controlled by political forces (To a much greater extent than heterosexuals, ie: Anti-sodomy laws still in existence in Massachussetts, the ban on gay marriage)?
In being shunned from a religion (Christianity) that you may were raised with and still believe in, a faith you have gained (As is the case with many homosexuals)?
The list goes on, but I'm sure you won't bother to consider it. The only problem I have with very religious people is their unwillingness to question and challenge what was laid before them at a young age and drilled into their impressionable minds.
 

Hey dude, thanks for the response.  I love that it is a big dialogue as opposed to people saying fuck yeah or fuck you.

Secondly to everyone, I am going to respond to everyone but typing sucks because I cut a tendon in my thumb on tour.  I get the cast off Wednesday so keep checking back and expect responses on Thursday.

I have to disagree with you man. Catholicism, is a sect of Christianity.  All it takes is a group to believe Jesus is the savior and they are a part of Christianity whether you want them to be a part of it or not.  Also, assuming this is true, they are a huge part of Christianity so for me to use Catechism and the Catholic bible seems perfectly alright to me. I think something like the King James Bible, simply written to appease a King, a few hundred years ago, seeking divorce lacks some credibility.

I just flat out disagree with you on the homosexuality point.  It isn't a sin and the bible is wrong.  These people are naturally born this way and if you have known one gay person you would know that. I think the way homosexuals are currently being treated as second class citizens is something our children will be shocked and appalled about, just as we can't believe civil rights for blacks were so lacking only 40+ years ago. I don't doubt you love them but seeing their lifestyle as a sin is highly offensive to me, someone with many gay friends.

I am glad you commented and encourage all of you to continue speaking with me about it. -Will, Autonym
 

Forgot to add some things and will also rebuttle what you just commented.

The thing that strikes me funny is that you are mad at these kids that ruined your van that are not acting like Christians when you said it yourself that these kids have no idea what Christianity is because bands like Underoath are leading them into it without them even knowing it.  If you think that they have no idea what they are getting into and you say it is a trend, then why are so mad???  Seems like someone is just mad because they made a little fun of people at a show and some people got mad at them and vandalized their van.  This really has nothing to do with Christians, it just has to do with you needing an excuse for the reaction that you got from some things you said that a couple of kids might of taken to far.

Oh and by the way, I have tons of links to where it is proven that homosexuality is not genetic and also where many that are in favor of homosexuality even say it is not. And I do know a bunch of gay people and even have a couple gay friends and I still believe that it is not genetic.

This whole discussion just goes right along with all the other stuff that bands talk about such as politics that they have no idea what they are talking about.  It's so easy to say "F*** Bush!" and have no idea what is going on.  I have yet to talk to a kid that says that and actually knows what they are talking about, or if they give some kind of intelligent answer then they completely contradict it in another way.  People just need to get informed about stuff and quit complaining and blaming others.

P.S.-Catholicism is NOT the same as Christianity at all.  If you need me to post on here what is different I will.  The whole basis for the two is completely different.

 

Hey man.  Much respect to you for responding without blowing up in a fit of rage.  It seems like that's the trend these days.  Though I don't agree with your view, I do respect it.  Keep rockin.

Joel French

 

..

1.whats not responsible for what I’m saying? That Christians believe homosexuality is wrong but they still love homosexuals? What’s wrong with that? I don't love or hate someone based on things like their race, religion, sexual orientation, or gender. I choose to love or hate someone based on their individual personality. nothing more- that’s all I’ve ever considered in liking or disliking someone. Do YOU go about this differently? Do you like or not like someone because they are female, or black, or gay, or a Christian? If you don't why is it so hard to believe that me or someone else could do the same thing? seems like you are the one who holds yourself above others.

2. Whose says I have blindly followed anything? who says anyone here has? Why wouldn't I believe something out of a book, when that is where ALL knowledge comes from? where did you learn all of the things you believe, like the theory of evolution? or the Pythagorean theorem for that matter (sp?) uh YOU GOT IT OUT OF A BOOK! just like your friend Will, I have seen some things and come to some conclusions, after much thought and discussion that has led me to my personal beliefs. So I’m to believe that you can accept this from Will but from no one else? hmm seems hypocritical and not very understanding of YOU.
The creation story seems more believable to me than the big bang theory because nothing from nothing begets nothing. you think its more believable that all the sudden there was nothing and then bang! there was a universe? okay. and you make light of how the earth became populated according to Christian theory...so what’s yours? the fact is that an entire population of people or animals, or microorganisms didn't just Bang! appear. no they all had to start somewhere and procreate to populate the world. even if you don't believe in the creation story it is a widely held belief that relatives had relations in order to populate the world. if you think that one days monkeys could magically evolve into humans I don't see how you could see that it was possible for relatives to have viable offspring. according to the theory of evolution species do what they have to survive and evolve.

3. Your right on the point that PEOPLE notice I didn't say Christians or jewish or anything other than) PEOPLE have misused religion to gain power and people have also rebelled against that power and choose top die for their beliefs. They have seen and felt, and heard, and loved something so deeply they followed it? how dare YOU say its stupid for those people to believe in a higher power? do you really think you are smarter or more enlightened than all those people?

4. you didn't understand the analogy at all. I was saying that is it fair for people to assume that because you play punk music you hold the same beliefs and conduct yourself as all the other punk bands of the world considering some of those bands happen to be nazi skinhead punks? if you say no to that then how could you think its okay all Christians are bad because some of them happen to do bad stuff? if you say yes, then I am beginning to see why you feel the way you do.

And just curious, can I ask you what are your views on other religions including Satanists?
 

I don't have a lot of time at the moment to respond to this, but faith, from my experience, is not following blindly without thinking about it.  In fact, it's quite the opposite.  Following blindy?  Well, to some extent.  Not thinking about it?  Hardly.  Dude, I know you have some doubts as to whether or not Christianity is legit, but from my own personal experience, I have seen things happen that are not natural, and they have come, coincidence or not, in times of prayer.  I've seen diabetes cured overnight because of prayer.  I was in the same building when my sister-in-law, who has never spoken a word of Tagalo (a Philipino dialect) spoke a clear prophecy to a Philipino friend of mine in her native tongue.  I have seen many other things that are not explainable without bringing God into the picture.  Now, I do have respect for others' opinions, and everyone is entitled to their own, but I have a very strong basis on which I build my belief in God.

The only other thing I have time to address right now is evolution.  In fact, I just posted a blog on evolution and Christianity a couple of weeks ago saying that it is possible that evolution happened without contradicting my beliefs, and I will say that I got very good response from Christian friends of mine about it.  Yes, most Christians choose to strongly oppose it, but do not stereotype all of us.  Unlike being a part of the Nazi party, the state of being a "Christian" unfortunately is not so cut and dry.  Christian means "Christ-like", and unfortunately there is not black and white way of saying who is Christ-like and who is not.  Many people claim to be Christians, and I believe that it is their own business what they believe that to mean.

Anyway, that's all I've got time for right now.  I do respect others having beliefs other than Christian beliefs, but don't feel like you have to go out there and prove the whole world wrong.  I am not forcing my belief on you, so don't try to force yours on me.  Thanks.

Joel French

 

hey joel, i just wanted to say, before this gets too far in the past that i really like and mostly agree with what you said. first of all i agree and believe that christianity SHOULD mean "being christ-like" and that it should be "their own business what they believe that to mean". please read what i just posted at the very end of all the other posts i made, which im afraid may or may not have given you the wrong idea about my intentions. also, let me say that i totally believe you about the supernatural stuff you've seen, and you may be surprised to believe that i generally believe in all sorts of paranormal phenomenon, including telepathy, telekinesis, aliens, and many "unbelievable acts of will". i feel however that i cannot attribute these acts to any ONE god considering that, for examples, zen monks can levitate off the ground during intense meditation, new-age atheists can bend forks with their minds, and every culture in the world has it's own shares of encounter with their own religion-specific spirits and demons. as a psychology student, ive learned of many seemingly supernatural powers attainable by "regular" people during moments of intense stress, hope, fear, and/or concentration, and i attribute them all to misunderstood powers of the human mind, namely untapped telepathic powers and maybe some untapped telekinetic powers coupled with a much larger ability to control the processes of one's own body than modern science can currently substantiate. i remember reading once about a case of a woman who mistakenly believed she had gotten pregnant and told everyone and carried on her affairs as a pregnant woman, and after a few months of this, her belly swelled to the size and shape of a pregnant woman's, she stopped getting her period, and she began to lactate. when she found out that she had never been pregnant, all the physical changes started to go away and soon she was back to normal. i think this sort of thing makes sense because the changes that your body undergoes during pregnancy are triggered by hormonal changes and resulting chemical signals that your brain sends out to the rest of  your body, and even without the actual fetus triggering these hormonal changes, i think you can will your body to do anything that it's normally capable of, even the things that it can normally only do in reaction to a changed environmental stimulus, by merely "willing" or in this case "tricking" yourself to do it. there are lots of stories of mothers lifting up cars with one arm to save their babies trapped underneath, and i think this is a form of telekinesis. i think the trick to harnessing telekinesis is being able to summon incredible will power, which would briefly occur naturally in such cases as this. the monks who can levitate, i think, are sort of naturally stumbling across this ability after spending years and years and years in isolation from the distractions of society working only on concentrating and channeling the powers of their mind.
 

Tonight is not the night for me to share my two cents on this matter. I haven't read all the responses posted so far, and until I do, I don't think it'd be fair for me to spit out all the things I feel like saying right now. I've got a lot to say.
Will knows that.
He's one of my best friends, not to mention one of the most intelligent people I know. As you've probably noticed, he makes incredibly well-educated arguments for things he cares deeply about, and I think he is to be commended (and respected, above all) for that, no matter what your opinion on the topic at hand.
In the wake of all that's been said here, and all the different perspectives shared and considered, I really just want to congratulate Will on this perceptive piece of writing that has garnered such an impressive response.
 

Man - this is a long debate, and deservedly. A blog this long is intimidating...

I can concur with the previous comment on Christian leftism, 'cause it exists, and I acribe myself to socialism, because I see something in socialism of the desire to help those abused and downtrodden.

Scene and fake - yeah. Much is. Not all. I can agree that I am in ways predisposed towards 'Christian' bands, but I appreciate music, and some of my favorite bands are not 'Christian', and there are those that are, and I believe they are genuine. And other favorites of mine I began to get into, and then discovered were 'Christian'.

Jesus is love - when love is not lived, Jesus is not followed. I still have so much to learn from God. I'm still trying to learn, and make word deed.

I do have to keep thinking and challenging, and I'm being challenged, but I'm trying to keep believing what Jesus said.

(Discourse like this is better done in person; so much has been said)

"I do not exist, only You exist," - Aaron Weiss, mewithoutYou

 

1.whats not responsible for what I’m saying? That Christians believe homosexuality is wrong but they still love homosexuals? What’s wrong with that? I don't love or hate someone based on things like their race, religion, sexual orientation, or gender. I choose to love or hate someone based on their individual personality. nothing more- that’s all I’ve ever considered in liking or disliking someone. Do YOU go about this differently? Do you like or not like someone because they are female, or black, or gay, or a Christian? If you don't why is it so hard to believe that me or someone else could do the same thing? seems like you are the one who holds yourself above others.

2. Whose says I have blindly followed anything? who says anyone here has? Why wouldn't I believe something out of a book, when that is where ALL knowledge comes from? where did you learn all of the things you believe, like the theory of evolution? or the Pythagorean theorem for that matter (sp?) uh YOU GOT IT OUT OF A BOOK! just like your friend Will, I have seen some things and come to some conclusions, after much thought and discussion that has led me to my personal beliefs. So I’m to believe that you can accept this from Will but from no one else? hmm seems hypocritical and not very understanding of YOU.
The creation story seems more believable to me than the big bang theory because nothing from nothing begets nothing. you think its more believable that all the sudden there was nothing and then bang! there was a universe? okay. and you make light of how the earth became populated according to Christian theory...so what’s yours? the fact is that an entire population of people or animals, or microorganisms didn't just Bang! appear. no they all had to start somewhere and procreate to populate the world. even if you don't believe in the creation story it is a widely held belief that relatives had relations in order to populate the world. if you think that one days monkeys could magically evolve into humans I don't see how you could see that it was possible for relatives to have viable offspring. according to the theory of evolution species do what they have to survive and evolve.

3. Your right on the point that PEOPLE notice I didn't say Christians or jewish or anything other than) PEOPLE have misused religion to gain power and people have also rebelled against that power and choose top die for their beliefs. They have seen and felt, and heard, and loved something so deeply they followed it? how dare YOU say its stupid for those people to believe in a higher power? do you really think you are smarter or more enlightened than all those people?

4. you didn't understand the analogy at all. I was saying that is it fair for people to assume that because you play punk music you hold the same beliefs and conduct yourself as all the other punk bands of the world considering some of those bands happen to be nazi skinhead punks? if you say no to that then how could you think its okay all Christians are bad because some of them happen to do bad stuff? if you say yes, then I am beginning to see why you feel the way you do.

And just curious, can I ask you what are your views on other religions including Satanists?
 

this is getting pretty long so im gonna post it in sections, one post for each point:

 

1. are you even reading my posts? seriously i shouldn't have to explain this again- you keep saying over and over again that you "love" homosexuals but still think it's "wrong". you think it's "wrong" because it says the "act" of homosexuality is a sin in the bible, and you are agreeing with this. what i have a problem with is your reasoning on this. you claim that you don't just follow anything in the bible blindly and that you think through every religious/philosophical choice you've made? prove it. you have said that you feel justified in categorizing homosexual behavior as "wrong" because it is not genetic; you feel that it is entirely a "choice" that people make which they could just as well not make. first of all, this is just plain wrong information. read the link in robot child's post above. but for a moment let's just assume that you're right and let's follow your logic through to it's natural conclusion: if there is no genetic predisposition to homosexuality AND the behavior is JUSTIFIABLY called a sin, there are only two real-world scenarios i can imagine that would explain this. either there's no such thing as an actual "gay" person, no one is ever really attracted to members of their own sex, and what happens is that for example you have two horny teenage males who are maybe hopped up on goofballs to boot and they're so ready to bone anything that moves that they just do what's easier than getting actual girls and they bone each other to satisfy their depraved, lustful greed for the feeling of human flesh. is this what you think but just don't have the balls to come out and say? because i'd feel comfortable speaking for the entire gay population of the world in telling you to go fuck yourself you arrogant bastard. unfortunately i think this really is how most christians view homosexuality. the only other scenario i can think of where homosexuality could be justified as both "wrong" and a "personal choice" is that EVERYONE is gay, or at the very least, all christians are gay, and so they feel comfortable calling it a sin because it is a shared burden that they all must face and they can console each other by  supporting everyone in the quest to avoid their "inner demons". is this the case? are you gay and ashamed of it, may? this second scenario would actually have some evidence in recent times as large numbers of priests have been exposed as same-sex child molesters. the point is may, what i have a problem with is that you keep saying homosexuality is wrong, without giving any good reason as to why you think that, and i know you only think that because that's what it says in the bible and probably what your parents told you, so i feel like either you just don't have a reason at all and have never really thought about this, or you do have a reason but you know it's kind of fucked up and you just don't want to say it. either way, for this conversation to continue, you need to give me your own complete personal reasons and justifications for feeling comfortable saying that homosexuality is wrong. and FOR THE LAST TIME it doesn't make it any better when you say that you "love" homosexuals at the same time. case in point: i "love" christians, and i "love" you may, but christianity is wrong, and you are wrong. this post and my previous post explain my reasons why, now it's your turn to do some explaining.

 

2. actually all my most important philosophical choices i've made for myself, and then the books that i've read have either confirmed or denied these findings, but that's neither here nor there, again, i'm gonna go with your own reasoning to try to explain why you're wrong. i said it was dumb that you've gotten all your information out of a book for various reasons and you retorted that i've gotten all my information out of books too and therefore we're "on the same page" in terms of how knowledgable we are; it's just that we're knowledgable about "different subjects". well keep in mind that your philosophy book is around two thousand years old whereas my philosophy books (mostly quantum physics and psychology textbooks) were all written around the past ten years or so. i'm talking string theory here and you've never even heard of alchemy!!! it hasn't even been invented yet!!! and it's mostly wrong anyway!!! do you see what i mean? do you understand the basic concept of progress? if you and i both get all of our knowledge out of books then i can accurately say that my thinking as a whole is about two thousand years more advanced than yours. but not like that really matters much, i mean not much has changed, right? hey look out your window! it's a mechanical horse!! oh oh and a magic-god-bird-machine in the sky!!!!! it's a sign!!!! i know, im sure youve read lots of other modern books and have lots of other more informed opinions about other subjects but right now we're talking about our core, philosophical beliefs and what has influenced them, which for you is the bible and which for me is modern science. also for your information the big bang theory does not say that the universe was created out of nothing, that's what the bible says. the big bang theory says that the entire contents of the universe were condensed, before the bang, into a very small spot, which, if you could imagine, would generate quite a reaction. i have a theory of my own about how this could happen: since all objects in the universe exert a gravitational force on every other object, maybe after the universe stops expanding from the momentum of the bang it collapses back in on itself and the whole process starts over; maybe this cycle has been and will be repeating forever; maybe there are infinite other universes doing this side by side with ours, and then you pan out further and our galaxies are really atoms that make up a giant hot dog in a parallel universe, and all the atoms in our bodies are their own mini solar systems...   okay, maybe that's stupid, but the point is, i'll bet it's at least a step in the right direction, and way way way better than just saying that every natural process happens to be the way it is because at some point, some huge, immaterial, larger, more perfect version of me "just felt like it", you get what im saying? my own theory might be wrong but somewhere out there scientists are using evidence from satellites that i would never have access to and they're putting together theories that actually make sense and this long road of progress has only been paved by deciding, a long time ago, to start throwing out what the bible says. as for monkeys "magically" evolving into humans, ya know, if i was out herding my sheep or whatever two thousand years ago and i saw a monkey run by in the distance, i would think, "uh-uh, not my relative". but nowadays, if i was looking at a dna analysis which shows that HUMANS AND CHIMPS HAVE 99% OF THE SAME DNA, and then i read jane goodall's books on the complex social behaviors of chimps, then i looked at all the fossil evidence which clearly shows that humans branched off from other species that all looked-like half-ape-men (you can't argue with fossils, or can you? the work of the devil maybe? sent by god to make you question your faith??), then after looking at these things, i would think "yup, there's my relative, damn i'm glad i don't herd sheep anymore". and as for you again suggesting that all the humans in the world got here from a long chain of two original humans having tons of incestuous relationships (isn't that supposed to be a sin anyway??), well again i mean that's just stupid, wishful thinking. please re-read my last post on the matter. anyways, how did black people come out of that? weren't adam and eve white? i suppose god just "magicced up" some black people at some point? i mean, you don't believe in evolution, and you're white, and you came, at some point, from adam and eve, so they must've been white, so how could white people living in africa develop dark skin??? hmmmm

 

3. do i really think im smarter or more enlightened than people who choose to believe misinformation only to make them feel better about themselves? in short, yes. people believe in religion out of fear: fear of death, fear of the unknown, fear of other cultures, fear of living an unfulfilling life, etc. and the fact of the matter is, this is just lazy thinking, because if you ever really run with the idea of life being totally meaningless and pointless, you'll realize that you're still the same person you always were, you still have the same friends, same family, same world at your disposal, and you'll find that you make yourself happy in just the same ways that YOU have always been making YOURSELF happy.

 

4. no, i understood your analogy perfectly, and then YOU didn't understand my explanation as to why it was such a poor analogy and once again i'm having to re-explain myself. punk politics as a whole are generally extremely left-leaning with an emphasis on equality for all people, that means no homophobia, no racism, no sexism, and no authoritarianism or any sort. even the bands you could think of that don't exactly meet this categorization, i mean lots of punk bands never gave a shit about actual politics, but they do all share the spirit of rebellion against whoever is perceived to be the authority figure trying to tell the person what to do, even if it's just a kids parents or teachers or society in general. hitler's "mein kampf", and the nazi party's doctrines as a whole, were meant as the justification for a total dictatorship. when hitler was a starving artist in vienna, he saw poverty and racial hatred (which obviously he shared) in the streets and total corruption in the higher levels of government, which he blamed on the "failure of democracy" (all talk, no action). in his mind the only realistic solution was to set up a system where there's one person on top who is all powerful, decides all policy, and is unquestioned by subordinates (hmm what does this system remind you of?). so you see anyone who has any idea what their talking about would realize that punk and nazi politics are 180 degree opposites. now, am i taking two groups of people with opposite beliefs and lumping them together? nope, im not saying satanists are similar to christians, im saying christians are similar to christians, which is true. as i've already explained, the "christian issues" which im arguing against are not fringe issues relevant to only the most fanatical right-wing christians out there, rather i am arguing against the core beliefs which all christians share, namely that there is a god, jesus was his son, there is a heaven, there is a hell, the "act of homosexuality" is a sin, or is wrong, or however you want to dance around that one, and overall that the writings of the bible should have any sort of authority whatsoever over the progress of science. and if you think im being paranoid in suggesting that there's a need to stand against that last one, just look at our government right now, midwest schools successfully sued the government to be able to teach creationism in science class (remember that whole constitution thing? what was the point of that?) and stem cell research is not federally funded (stem cell research which could cure aids and cancer- are you people nuts??) and george bush is in office to begin with (couldn't have done that twice without the love and support of the bible belt)

 

(*maybe you've never read the constitution- church and state are supposed to be separate.)

 

Haha, I love uneducated people that talk about stuff they have no idea about, pretty much all your posts have no backing behind them and are just stuff you have heard and bascially are not proven at all.

Why don't you do us all a favor and read the Constitution cause you wont find separation of church and state in there...trust me.

 

(ahem, drum roll please):

the Establishment Clause of the First Ammendment to the US Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

this means both that US policy is not to be influenced by any religious establishment and that US policy cannot interfere with the private practices of religious institutions. there are those who have tried to suggest that this is a wrong interpretation, but they're wrong, it clearly means what i just said. the phrase "separation of church and state" comes from a letter written by thomas jefferson to the danbury baptists in 1802 in which he quotes the first ammendment and then says "i contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole american people that which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." in other words, though he himself was a christian, he was smart enough to see the benefits of living in a nation in which church and state were completely separate. here are some other famous US people, courtesy of wikipedia, who agree with me:

James Madison, the principal drafter of the Bill of Rights, often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state" (1819 letter to Walsh). "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" (1811 letter to Baptist Churches). Ulysses S. Grant also called for Americans to "Keep the church and state forever separate."

yup, uneducated people who talk about stuff they have no idea about sure are funny, scott! hey, why don't you try actually responding to any of my arguments instead of just telling me i have no idea what im talking about! why dont you answer the question i posed to may about how you can justify homosexuality being a sin?

 

5.  what are my views on other religions, including satanists? satanism is basically a big joke as far as i can tell. every satanist ive ever met has been a pretty chill person, and when i've asked them to explain their religion they've each said that it's about the will of the self and naturalism and understanding and that it's not at all what the media or christians make it out to be. that's all well and good, but i mean, come on, if you're gonna call yourself a satanist, you should AT LEAST be out murdering people or sacrificing babies or trying to bring on the apocalypse, right? bunch of panzies.  ya know i once had a conversation with a man who told me that the bottom line is that everything good in the universe is the work of god and everything bad, including ANYTHING THAT WOULD MAKE ANYONE QUESTION THE EXISTENCE OF GOD AND THE TRUTH OF THE BIBLE, WAS THE WORK OF THE DEVIL. i asked him then if he believed i was the devil, and he smiled and said "how should i know?". may, am i the devil? is this satan sending a personalized challenge of faith your way?

 

 

 

love, josh

 

 

ps im not the devil

 

Dear Will,



Love,
Hussain

P.S. No Kudos

 

i believe that christianity as a whole is, say, about 97% good and maybe only 3% bad. however, i believe that even such a small amount of "badness", if left unchecked, leaves enough "wiggle room" for atrocities to be committed in the name of a good cause. my examples of past evils committed by or in the name of the church were meant only to illustrate THIS POINT. i don't really feel that christianity is bad as a whole, but rather that there are little bad aspects of it that people don't seem to care do anything about, and when you just let these things go, eventually it turns into real disasters. the reason i take such an aggressive tone in my arguments is because first of all, for the reasons i just listed, i think these things are WORTH ardently fighting about and second of all that the people im arguing with seem very stubborn and unwilling to really consider what im saying or answer the serious questions that i pose. i don't have a vendetta against christianity, nor am i trying to insinuate that christians or religious people in general are stupid. one of the best teachers i've ever had, my high school AP physics teacher, was an ardent believer in god and felt that the infinite complexities of the universe as depicted by the most modern of scientific knowledge could only stand as proof that there has to be a god. one of my best friends agrees with everything i have to say about science versus god except that he believes in god. to clarify that statement: he agrees that all the biblical creation stories and explanations of the universe are clearly antiquated best-guesses made by people alive at the time the bible was written and that these should not be taken as anything more than mythology now; or in other words; the science of those stories is obviously outdated now but the morals aren't. furthermore (and trust me we've argued about this thoroughly) he believes that it makes the most sense, if you are of the inclination to believe in god, to believe everything that modern science says while still believing in god as existing just outside of that realm. after all, if god is by definition physically "untestable" and thus completely outside of the capabilities of modern science, then how could believing in the most modern of scientific theories ever cross the lines of your belief in god? let's say i believe in the basic idea of quantum physics, which is that there exists an absolute "smallest piece" of matter that everything everywhere can be ultimately be reduced to and described as being entirely comprised of, and that the processes governing the behavior of these "smallest pieces" can be completely described in equation form, and thus everything that exists in our world can be understood and even manipulated. if god can't be "tested for" to begin with and thus exists oustide of the world of science, then why would believing in both ever be a contradiction?
 

i believe that christianity as a whole is, say, about 97% good and maybe only 3% bad. however, i believe that even such a small amount of "badness", if left unchecked, leaves enough "wiggle room" for atrocities to be committed in the name of a good cause. my examples of past evils committed by or in the name of the church were meant only to illustrate THIS POINT. i don't really feel that christianity is bad as a whole, but rather that there are little bad aspects of it that people don't seem to care do anything about, and when you just let these things go, eventually it turns into real disasters. the reason i take such an aggressive tone in my arguments is because first of all, for the reasons i just listed, i think these things are WORTH ardently fighting about and second of all that the people im arguing with seem very stubborn and unwilling to really consider what im saying or answer the serious questions that i pose. i don't have a vendetta against christianity, nor am i trying to insinuate that christians or religious people in general are stupid. one of the best teachers i've ever had, my high school AP physics teacher, was an ardent believer in god and felt that the infinite complexities of the universe as depicted by the most modern of scientific knowledge could only stand as proof that there has to be a god. one of my best friends agrees with everything i have to say about science versus god except that he believes in god. to clarify that statement: he agrees that all the biblical creation stories and explanations of the universe are clearly antiquated best-guesses made by people alive at the time the bible was written and that these should not be taken as anything more than mythology now; or in other words; the science of those stories is obviously outdated now but the morals aren't. furthermore (and trust me we've argued about this thoroughly) he believes that it makes the most sense, if you are of the inclination to believe in god, to believe everything that modern science says while still believing in god as existing just outside of that realm. after all, if god is by definition physically "untestable" and thus completely outside of the capabilities of modern science, then how could believing in the most modern of scientific theories ever cross the lines of your belief in god? let's say i believe in the basic idea of quantum physics, which is that there exists an absolute "smallest piece" of matter that everything everywhere can be ultimately be reduced to and described as being entirely comprised of, and that the processes governing the behavior of these "smallest pieces" can be completely described in equation form, and thus everything that exists in our world can be understood and even manipulated. if god can't be "tested for" to begin with and thus exists oustide of the world of science, then why would believing in both ever be a contradiction? (continued below)
 

i believe that christianity as a whole is, say, about 97% good and maybe only 3% bad. however, i believe that even such a small amount of "badness", if left unchecked, leaves enough "wiggle room" for atrocities to be committed in the name of a good cause. my examples of past evils committed by or in the name of the church were meant only to illustrate THIS POINT. i don't really feel that christianity is bad as a whole, but rather that there are little bad aspects of it that people don't seem to care do anything about, and when you just let these things go, eventually it turns into real disasters. the reason i take such an aggressive tone in my arguments is because first of all, for the reasons i just listed, i think these things are WORTH ardently fighting about and second of all that the people im arguing with seem very stubborn and unwilling to really consider what im saying or answer the serious questions that i pose. i don't have a vendetta against christianity, nor am i trying to insinuate that christians or religious people in general are stupid. one of the best teachers i've ever had, my high school AP physics teacher, was an ardent believer in god and felt that the infinite complexities of the universe as depicted by the most modern of scientific knowledge could only stand as proof that there has to be a god. one of my best friends agrees with everything i have to say about science versus god except that he believes in god. to clarify that statement: he agrees that all the biblical creation stories and explanations of the universe are clearly antiquated best-guesses made by people alive at the time the bible was written and that these should not be taken as anything more than mythology now; or in other words; the science of those stories is obviously outdated now but the morals aren't. furthermore (and trust me we've argued about this thoroughly) he believes that it makes the most sense, if you are of the inclination to believe in god, to believe everything that modern science says while still believing in god as existing just outside of that realm. after all, if god is by definition physically "untestable" and thus completely outside of the capabilities of modern science, then how could believing in the most modern of scientific theories ever cross the lines of your belief in god? let's say i believe in the basic idea of quantum physics, which is that there exists an absolute "smallest piece" of matter that everything everywhere can be ultimately be reduced to and described as being entirely comprised of, and that the processes governing the behavior of these "smallest pieces" can be completely described in equation form, and thus everything that exists in our world can be understood and even manipulated. if god can't be "tested for" to begin with and thus exists oustide of the world of science, then why would believing in both ever be a contradiction? furthermore, why can't you believe in evolution and the big bang, and still believe that whatever initial "seed" sparked off these events was created by and/or governed by and/or intertwined with the will of god? in fact, no matter how far you take this argument, no matter how far human knowledge extends forwards and backwards in time in terms of understanding the history, mechanics, and reach of the universe, it would still never contradict science to believe that god exists somewhere outside of this, since god is by definition not a tangible part of nature. the science issue of belief in god frustrates me because i feel like so so so many people are raised both by their parents and by their school systems to unquestioningly believe archaic biblical explanations of the world and to fear hell as a consequence for refuting any of these. before i stray too far from the topic, again, i only feel like maybe 3% of christianity today is wrong, and that includes A. literally believing "biblical science" like the creation story, the adam and eve story, etc. B. believing homosexuality is a sin C. believing all non-christians will go to hell and D. allowing religion to play a part in politics.