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“If we discover a desire within us that nothing in this world can satisfy, also we should begin to wonder if perhaps we were created for another world.”

*Deus Ex Machina*



Last Updated: 11/19/2009

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Gender: Male
Status: Single
Age: 20
Sign: Libra

Country: US
Signup Date: 3/14/2005
August 12, 2009 - Wednesday 

Category: Religion and Philosophy
“Religion, opium for the people! To those suffering pain, humiliation, illness, and serfdom, it promised a reward in afterlife. And now we are witnessing a transformation. A true opium of the people is the belief in nothingness after death. The huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders, we are not going to be judged.”- Czeslaw Milosz

“Don’t ever ask me to rob a man of his religious belief, as if you thought my mind tended to such robbery. I have too profound a conviction of the efficacy which underlies all sincere faith, and the blight that comes with no faith, to have any negative propagandism in me. In fact I have very little sympathy with Freethinkers as a class, and have lost all interest in mere antagonisms to religious doctrines. I care to know, if possible, the lasting meaning which lies in all religious doctrines from the beginning till now.”- George Eliot

"Feuerbach argued that humanity constructed its own religious ideals for its convenience and consolation; in Milozs’ argument, we can see the recognition that both belief in God and a refusal to believe in God are themselves the result of human longings; the former a consolation and a longing for immortality, and the latter a longing for autonomy and a lack of accountability. Both are opiums of the people, different groups of people, but both needing their respective opiums." McGrath

Should Atheism designate those who positively reject belief in God, or should it also refer to those who do not at the moment actually believe in supernatural beings? Does atheism embrace all those who are still thinking about God and those who regard the question as insoluble (i.e. agnostics)?

The college graduate who has suspended judgment on God while he/she reflects on the issues cannot be designated an atheist for that reason, she might be a potential atheist, but might equally end up as an agnostic or Christian. Is it acceptable to call a person an atheist because they do not presently believe in God? Atheism is not about the suspension of judgment on the God question; it is a firm and principled commitment to the non-existence of God, and the liberating impact of this belief. The very idea is declared to be outdated, enslaving, and a downright self-contradiction.
At its best and most authentic, atheism is a protest, a protest against the social and personal injustices often linked with religion and certain of its ideas in the past, which are held to be reactionary, oppressive, or even demonic. How can you not respect atheism on these points?'

Do we not all share a hatred for belief in falsities? Of dated ethical codes that seemingly lead to violence, fanaticism, paranoia, hatred, and self-loathing?
In essence however, these are the very same things that the very faith I was raised in spoke out against. How can two worldviews with passions so strongly alike, come to such diametrically opposed conclusions? One need not be an unbeliever to hate these things, but it seems like anti-religious propagandists will make you believe you have to shed all belief in God in order to gain a new appreciation for nature, a ‘true’ appreciation. Like Dawkins says, isn’t it enough to enjoy the beauty of a garden, without worrying about the fairies at the bottom?
We all want for the same things; the Bible speaks of a new Earth in which every tear will be wiped out, where there will be no hunger, no thirst, and no needs. Similarly, a common theme in books writen by the new atheists devote the last chapters to describing a near utopian vision of the world. A world where disease is no longer rampant, through science, where hunger is no longer a problem, via genetic manipulation of the world’s crops, and where no man shall slay another man. Atheism and Theism both seem to appeal to our human aspirations, they appeal to our sense that things aren’t the way they ought to be. They appeal to our hopes of a better world, a utopian world, whether physical or metaphysical, where past wrongs will be corrected, and life can be lived as it was meant to.

The difference it seems, is how to define how exactly it is that life is meant to be lived. To some, let’s say, the lovers of reason, life is lived to the fullest when it is free of superstition, of ideas that enslave the mind, of living up to the wise aspect of our biological name Homo (wise) Sapiens (man). Aristotle believed the purpose of all things was to fulfill their ‘telos’, or their designed, to fulfill their purpose. To him, that purpose was being rational, it was to fulfill our duties as rational beings by acting in accord to reason. On the other side, we have those who take a different look of humanity, we do not place ourselves in a pedestal, that is, instead of looking at ourselves as divine creatures of our own accord, we look up at the author of our being as the only one capable of filling the gap. As the one whom our sense of alienation from this world points towards.

Can’t there be both? Can’t we live a life committed to the principle that ‘the unexamined life is not worth living’, while recognizing that there may be something beyond the empirical realm that is the source of our hunger?

"For myself, as, no doubt, for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom; we objected to the political and economic system because it was unjust. The supporters of these systems claimed that in some way they embodied the meaning (A Christian meaning, they insisted) of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and at the same time justifying ourselves in our political and erotical revolt: we could deny that the world had any meaning whatsoever.”- Aldous Huxley

What exactly is the appeal of atheism then? To some, it may be in its proposal to eradicate religion. As Allister McGrath points out “If atheism had represented itself simply as commending the merits of a godless worldview, I would not have been attracted to it- and neither would many others. Its lure lay in its proposal to change the world rather than to create a little club of the godless in the midst of a religious world. As Karl Marx had pointed out many years earlier, philosophers had merely offered interpretations of the world; what was really needed was a transformation. The atheist vision was totalizing-a panoramic view of a society that had been liberated from its chief enemy and oppressor, whether that was defined as God or religion.”
When religion, at least in America, seems to be more concerned about popular political elections, about whether or not gays should be allowed to marry, whether or not they should be allowed to adopt a child, and about denying well established scientific truths such as Global Warming and Evolution, there is no doubt as to why some would see it as a tremendous step forward for humanity were religion to be eradicated.

Second, “atheism seemed to make a certain degree of sense to things. If there was no God, then life was what we chose to make of it. It was, in some ways, a rather bleak philosophy of life- but if it was right, who cared? Having read Camus and Sartre, I had come to the view that there was a real integrity, not to mention a certain degree of bravery, in embracing such an austere philosophy, which contrasted rather pleasingly with what I regarded as the superstitious delusions of Christianity. To my slightly confused way of thinking, the bleaker an outlook, the greater the chance of its being right in the first place.”

It seems to me like there is also another appeal to Atheism, and that is ‘protest atheism’. Not an intellectual rebellion against belief, but a moral rebellion.

“In the brothers Karamazov, one of the brothers, Ivan, acts as a spokesperson for those who question the coherence of traditional Christian belief. Ivan’s criticisms are directed not so much against God as against the world that God is alleged to have created. How can one believe in God, when the created order itself seems riddled with injustice and contradiction? A refusal to believe in God is the appropriate principled response to the inequities of the world, and the God who is alleged to have brought it into being, yet such a response seems curiously distant from the world’s sorrow and pain. Raging against injustice, Ivan asks Alyosha to imagine a shocking scene. An eight year old child accidentally bruises the leg of a general’s favorite beagle. Outraged, the general sets a pack of dogs upon the child, who is torn to pieces in front of his mother. What’s the justice in that, asks Ivan? How can anyone sing “You are just and true, O God, for your ways are made clear”? Ivan continues: I hasten to return my entry ticket. And if I am at all an honest man, I am obliged to return it as soon as possible. That is what I am doing. It isn’t God I don’t accept, Alyosha. It’s just his ticked that I most respectfully return to him.”- McGrath

The argument from evil is perhaps one of the strongest and most widely known arguments against the existence of God. And who hasn’t stopped to ponder and think about these questions? How can we reconcile an all caring God as the one portrayed in the Tanakh and the New Testament with a world like ours? As much as this argument may make us stop and think, within the field of philosophy, it seems to have resulted in a stalemate. It doesn’t seem like either side has ‘won’. Philosopher William Alston pointed out that ‘any logical argument which attempts to show that evil is logically incompatible with the existence of God is ‘now acknowledged on (almost) all sides’ to be completely bankrupt.

Personally speaking, Atheism has lost its appeal on me. It no longer appeals to my intellect as it once did. Philosophically, it is in no better shape or grounds than Theism. There is a terrible misconception out there that Atheism represents all that is rational in the world, with its bright philosophers like David Hume, Bertrand Russell, etc. holding prominent places at the top of the intellectual ladder, while Theism is a sort of backwaters belief system whose leading advocates are no more sophisticated than the Westboro Baptist Church folks or the folks at Answers in Genesis. Philosophically speaking, they are at a stalemate. You wouldn’t think so were you to glance through popular online blogs and debates between believers and unbelievers, but within the philosophical scholarly community, where rhetoric is turned down, and an emphasis is placed on logical coherent methodological thinking, the final outcome is far from clear. Can human reason ultimately lead to a final watertight proof for the existence or non-existence of a Creator? I highly doubt it, at least if history is any indication. Many theologians accept this, and so do many atheists, so it seems to me like agnosticism is the only rationally justified conclusion.

"The grand idea that atheism is the only option for a thinking person has long since passed away, being displaced by a growing awareness of the limitations placed on human knowledge and the need for humility in religious and anti-religious advocacy."

“As Thomas Huxley pointed out, no such decision may be reached on the basis of the evidence available, forcing us to reach one of two conclusions: either no decision can be reached (a position that Huxley designated ‘agnosticism’), or a decision is reached on other grounds. As Blaise Pascal pointed out, ‘reasons of the heart’ play a far greater role in shaping our attitudes to God than we realize.”

So what would propel someone to come to belief then? McGrath defines faith as ‘belief lying beyond proof’, which I believe to be a good definition. Many atheists, like Dawkins and Hitchens, love to describe faith as ‘a process of non-thinking’, or ‘believing what you know aint so’, but for philosophers, faith is a much different thing. What can one do when faced with a dilemma between two seemingly valid positions to hold? Should one give up? Or should one adopt one of the two views? One cannot say atheism is a suspension of belief; that would be agnosticism, atheism would be the declaration that there is no God, which is beyond proof itself, and thus falls into the category of faith, if we define it to be as ‘belief lying beyond proof’.

Atheism has its strengths, and a great appeal to a population that has been fed up with the corruption and seeming indifference of religious institutions to the real problems facing our world today. It is no surprise that a resurgence of Atheism came about after the attacks of 9/11.

"Atheism, I believe, becomes more popular when religious communities become more corrupt-and especially when their corruption includes violence. This occurred in the decades after the Thirty Years War in European history, and I think we're entering a similar period today. When religion seems to produce violent or arrogant or hypocritical believers, many people decided it is more ethical not to believe. When the world's second largest religion seems (to many people) too tolerant of terrorism and sectarian violence, and sometimes even encourages and justifies them, we shouldn't be surprised that many people reject religion. When the world's largest religion seems (to many people) too tolerant of militarism, unjustified war, and consumerism, and sometimes even encourages and justifies them, we should be even less surprised. When both religions do too little to promote active peacemaking, care for the poor, concern for the environment, and the renewal of communities, when they seem more concerned with 'straining out gnats' of religious trivia than 'swallowing camels' of massive social injustice, we should only be surprised that more people haven't become atheists."- Brian D. McLaren
Listing 1-50 of 315
just some guy

 
you put a lot of effort into this.  it is well written, researched and constructed. 

generally speaking philosophic arguments bore the hell out of me.  they are all intellect and platonic ideals, failing utterly to address the practical reality of human thought and experience.  like ballet or opera, they have their own beauty and esthetic appeal, but they bore me.  And as often as not they irk me because they miss the point, or the reality of what it means to be human.

My thought is that we believe what we find believable, and what we find believable is what defines us and the world we live in.  self image, not reason, is the 'why' behind the 'what' we believe, though often enough our self image prevents us from seeing this, or admitting it.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 18, 2009 - Thursday - 8:26 AM
[Reply to this
DJICE9 READ MY BLOGS YOU'LL BE SHOCKED!
FElIX DJice

 
EVERYONE READ MY BLOGS...

I'LL PAY ANYONE $5000.00 CASH IF THEY CAN PROVE JESUS WAS CHRISTS NAME.

CAN YOU???  .... DANGER JESUS IS THE ANTICHRIST!!!!!

ADD ME AND READ MY BLOGS... WARN YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY.....

I HAVE THE TRUTH, THE FACTS AND THE RESULTS!!!!!!

YAHWEH IS THE FATHER ----- YAHSHUA IS HIS SON.

JESUS IS ----> "ESUS" IEOSUS, IESUS, HESUS, LORD, <----- SATAN!!!!!

 
Posted by DJICE9 READ MY BLOGS YOU'LL BE SHOCKED! on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:03 PM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
yaweh was a minor diety,  bringer of destructive storms as opposed to productive rain.  As patron to a specific tribe of nomadic semites who traveled beyond the reach and influence of other semitic tribes, yaweh eventually became the only diety in that particular tribes pantheon.  thus we have yaweh instructing his people to have no other gods before him, because he was jealous of the attention his chosen people paid to the other dieties.

pathetic, small minded and all too human.


Enjoy your 'truth'.  And please accept my wishes that your truth keeps you warm at night, and that it reinforces your self image in a manner that allows you to feel good about yourself and your place in the universe..
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 10:36 PM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
the hebrews are the caananites.  just different labels from different periods of time used by different outside observers.  all semitic tribes.  the only thing unique about the hebrews was they were wanderers, likely driven away from their cousins after losing a war of agression.  the norm was for cities to have a unique patron, and for families within cities to have their unique patrons, but for other gods of the pantheon to be recognized as well.  not practical for wanderers, whose adoption of the same patron served very practical concerns.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 26, 2009 - Friday - 8:47 PM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
troll.

haha
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:00 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
good troll or bad troll, you still see me as a label.  hope that works out for you.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:42 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
well aren't you precious!
 
Posted by just some guy on June 26, 2009 - Friday - 8:48 PM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
My apologies Sir. It is unfortunate that I can not find way to communicate without the labels sometimes.

hehe.

:)
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:48 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
I understand.  Learning how to actualy communicate with other human beings was very hard for mel.  I had to let go of my certain knowlege (belief) that I was smarter and intellectually, morally and ethicaly superior to everyone.  Well, maybe not let go of - but relax it a bit, because it placed me apart and above every other human being on the planet, and that got a bit lonely after a while.

I'm still not a very good communicator, but I recognize that limitation, and I do try to address it, at times at least.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 3:15 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
I have tried using original words. People just look at me funny when I do (and not in a good way).
 
Posted by just some guy on June 29, 2009 - Monday - 3:15 AM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
The good kind of troll

:)
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:21 AM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Yes. True.

:)
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 26, 2009 - Friday - 2:19 AM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
>>>generally speaking philosophic arguments bore the hell out of me. they are all intellect and platonic ideals, failing utterly to address the practical reality of human thought and experience.<<<

Your assertion is by its very nature philosophical, & observation means nothing w/out some form of though to interpret it.

 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on June 20, 2009 - Saturday - 5:55 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
sort of.  they are logical constructs. like any logical construct they may be good, bad, well constructed, poorly constructed, valid or invalid.  But not necessarilly bearingany relationship to the material universe we live within.  Logical constructs and  philosophies that do not have any direct relationship or bearing to or on the material world are less interesting to me than ones which have such a relationship. 

Human nature is a real thing, and is in effect, a force of nature.  A wise man does not oppose forces of nature, he uses them.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 20, 2009 - Saturday - 10:42 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
What the hell are you talking about?


 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on June 26, 2009 - Friday - 8:43 PM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
You may not find them interesting, but that doesn't make them any less valid in themselves. I still haven't heard a good reason to assume that this realm is the only one in existence, & the notion that only constructs which are applicable to the material world are valid is not something you can derive from studying this, the material world, so that notion is itself unapplicable to the material world. Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, & keep in mind that I myself am a materialist, but the existence of a realm outside the material realm does not in any way run counter to the material world or any material truths.

As for human nature; I mostly agree, but it should be noted that human nature is not fixed, so the forces of nature we have to deal with are really human cultures.
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:00 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
You are making absolutely no sense, you should work on writing down your ideas more clearly and engaging in conversation rather than Trolling.


 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on June 27, 2009 - Saturday - 1:24 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
I exist within this material frame of reference.  Therefore this is the reference frame that is of interest to me.  What interests you is not my concern.  count the number of angels dancing on the head of your ... pin if you like. 

As for human culture being superior to human nature, I think you have the relationship inverted, and i think the relationship is assymetric (not reversible).  just my opinion.

 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:02 PM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
I agree that logical constructs, philosophical treaties and discourses and such can be true, or false, valid and invalid in and of themselves.  and from a strictly mathematical perspective they can be interesting at times.  but unless they have a direct bearing on the material reality that is my personal frame of reference, they are little more than mental masturbation, in my opinion of course.  others may find something more important there.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:57 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
What exactly do you mean by mental masturbation? Because something cannot be proven empirically, do you reject it outright then?

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on June 22, 2009 - Monday - 5:36 PM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
i mean playing mind games that are fun, but non productive.  they provide exercise for the brain, and some pleasure, but they conceal what is real behind mental constructs of what should be. 

empiracly proven?  an obvious trap.  and an invitation to misunderstand the nature of 'proof'.

my interests lie in what is, and why.  what is, is not always empiracle proven, or even provable, at any given point in time.  yet what is, is.  at least according to Descartes. 

we think, therefore we are, at least, we think (take as a matter of faith).

platonic idealizations are not, and in this frame of reference, can never be, save as a form of mental masturbation.  in my opinion, which is nothing more than a matter of personal preference.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 22, 2009 - Monday - 8:49 PM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
How do you distinguish "mind games" from worthwhile intellectual endeavors? Taken at face value, hardly anyone would prefer unrealistic idealizations over thinking that pertains to reality, but these are just vague generalizations. What exactly do you mean?
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on June 23, 2009 - Tuesday - 4:08 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
quantifiability

the ability to be modeled mathematicaly

philosophy is mathematics using poorly defined, imprecise and fluid terms (and operators), allowing for the same input to achieve any desired output, depending on the intelligence and creativity of the philosopher in question.

while it can be said that statistics can be misused and misrepresented, mathematics do not lie.  They provide us with the most accurate language yet discovered by mankind to describe, or to model, the material frame we exist within.


 
Posted by just some guy on June 23, 2009 - Tuesday - 4:26 AM
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Haha! You are a smart one! hehe.

Look out for this one. It would be bad idea to undestimate him. haha.


 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 1:12 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
don't let the glasses fool ya


 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:45 AM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Haha!

Yes. Well, it takes all kinds to make the world go round. I am not always careful...but anymore....I 'try' to be.

hehe.

 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 3:03 AM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
I am not atheist because its nice there is no God to punnish me for what bad things I have done. People come to atheism for different causes or reasons where as religion more often than not is inculcated into little people before they can think critically. Superstition re-enforced by community and familiy. Culture.

That being said, I do not give an rats ass about atheism. Why do I feel this way? Free thought and sceptisim as well as openmindedness which is an important part of scepticism all mitigate harm. These should be encouraged in all with no strings attached like having to be atheist. You should know that there are other atheists online who agree....whether anti-religious or not. 

Moreover, atheism bare of those is in no way any garauntee of better tommorow with progress and less violence and injustices. A person can be atheist and be nasty authoritarian irrational asshole. No garauntees and so why put so much emphasis on atheism when free thought is what is crucial. If atheism is so important then perhaps some will realize that free thought has led some to atheism. 

I do not feel religion should get a free pass any longer, but I hope we do not develop an hateful mob mentality. But who knows maybe we will do ok the majority of us.

....if you do not want to call yourself atheist then don't. Why should that be important?

"Atheism, I believe, becomes more popular when religious communities become more corrupt-and especially when their corruption includes violence. This occurred in the decades after the Thirty Years War in European history, and I think we're entering a similar period today. When religion seems to produce violent or arrogant or hypocritical believers, many people decided it is more ethical not to believe. When the world's second largest religion seems (to many people) too tolerant of terrorism and sectarian violence, and sometimes even encourages and justifies them, we shouldn't be surprised that many people reject religion. When the world's largest religion seems (to many people) too tolerant of militarism, unjustified war, and consumerism, and sometimes even encourages and justifies them, we should be even less surprised. When both religions do too little to promote active peacemaking, care for the poor, concern for the environment, and the renewal of communities, when they seem more concerned with 'straining out gnats' of religious trivia than 'swallowing camels' of massive social injustice, we should only be surprised that more people haven't become atheists." 

 Yes. "Christians". 

What religious people do it have nothing to do with how I came to atheism. People are different.  

"When both religions do too little to promote active peacemaking, care for the poor, concern for the environment, and the renewal of communities, when they seem more concerned with 'straining out gnats' of religious trivia than 'swallowing camels' of massive social injustice, we should only be surprised that more people haven't become atheists."

Heh. Not all but most Christians are hypocritical it 'seems' to me. Yes. 

Perhaps there is a lot of truth to what you see here as to atheism being on the rise.

I 'think' you are right.

They will lose the culture war most probably.
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 18, 2009 - Thursday - 10:41 AM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
I think terms like "Freethinker" need to be rejected. They're flattering labels which swell the pride of those who wear them, & many atheists who wear such labels are the secular equivalent of Pharisees. I've seen many people who adopt a label like "Freethinker" or "Skeptic" or "Rationalist" or "Realist" who condescend to anybody that disagrees with them & who practically think they're infallible, as they, being a member of the "Rational" club can never be wrong, since they're rational, & those who aren't part of the club can never be right, since those 'other people' are designated as "Irrational." 
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on June 20, 2009 - Saturday - 6:04 AM
[Reply to this
just some guy

 
I like the term 'freethinker', but i dislike the manner in which the term has been co opted by biased assholes to give their particular cult or club a patina of respectability.  I think it has been noted elsewhere in this blog that there are those who use the term and demand that it only applies to those who have reached a conclusion that they insist is the only possible conclusion.  free-thought - free thought - the ability to think without prior constraint.  I use this meaning when I use the term, and am often disappointed when others insist it means something else, redefining the language to suit their own agendas.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:09 PM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
"member of the "Rational" club"
 
Sometimes, I do not like certain attitudes. Let me be clear here though. I Think they have done some good and I do not want them to stop what they are doing. I feel atheists have the right to have a place at the table as well as have an impact on culture. It is not right that atheists are pushed around.

I am anti-religious I just have an different style. I do not have all the answers and solutions....and I am not going to boss the others.
 
I have always been up front about my feelings here and do not desire to be misunderstood.


 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 3:33 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
'I feel atheists have the right to have a place at the table as well as have an impact on culture. It is not right that atheists are pushed around. '

Atheists absolutely do have a right to have a place at the intellectual table. Unfortunately, most atheists I know think they deserve a spot at the center of the intellectual table, looking down on anyone else who disagrees. That kind of attitude needs to go. Also, I'm not too sure about you, but Atheists do as much pushing around as any other group out there.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 4:26 PM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
That was the attitude I was refering to and yes agreed. We will not change those atheists minds....and so...let them be and we can do our own thing. Free thinkers they are an very diverse lot. Different feelings about how to go about things. No one group owns free thought certainly.

That being said, I am still anti-religious. Not anti-theist however. I do not think so.



 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 8:45 PM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
"I think terms like "Freethinker" need to be rejected."

I can understand. I disagree though.

"They're flattering labels which swell the pride of those who wear them, & many atheists who wear such labels are the secular equivalent of Pharisees. I've seen many people who adopt a label like "Freethinker" or "Skeptic" or "Rationalist" or "Realist" who condescend to anybody that disagrees with them & who practically think they're infallible, as they, being a member of the "Rational" club can never be wrong, since they're rational, & those who aren't part of the club can never be right, since those 'other people' are designated as "Irrational.""

" the secular equivalent of Pharisees."

This made me chuckle. hehe. Yes.

When it comes to spreading free thought I would rather focus more on methods than opinions. To me free thought is the methods 'more so' than opinions. Even here nothing will be perfect however. I can do nothing about that.

All we can do is our best. 

I think free thought beneficial. Though nothing can be perfect. 


I do not think we need be flawless to consider ourselves one who values free thought.
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 20, 2009 - Saturday - 6:28 AM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
Fair enough. I agree at least that the emphasis should be on methods rather than beliefs; after all, the most "free-thinking" individual I've ever met was into Jungian & Eastern philosophy, & yet still managed to reconcile all that with his Christianity. 
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:10 AM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
"Jungian & Eastern philosophy, & yet still managed to reconcile all that with his Christianity."

In my opinion Christianity can meld well with many eastern philosophies....but....no other religions can possibly mix with Christianity...if you know what I mean. Still, my agenda is humanity...mitigating harm. People smiling and happy. I am not always realistic yet I am still a free thinker. I have some irrational beliefs perhaps. I hope mine do no harm. I do the best I can.

This friend of yours, it would not offend me in the least if he style himself an free thinker. 

:)

 
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 2:28 AM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
"They will lose the culture war most probably."

"Fundamentslist" Christians in this country. That is what I meant. They will lose.

 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 18, 2009 - Thursday - 10:39 PM
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just some guy

 
the fundies are winning the culture war.  winning is unrelated to being intellectually, logicaly or morally 'right'.  it is about winning ground, depleting the enemies resources and winning the hearts and minds of the people who occupy the countryside.  In this case, it is about advertising and manipulation of public perception.  Reason has virtualy nothing to do with it.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:12 PM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
I understand that the whole mess has little to do with dispassionate reasoning.

You really think they are winning? The "fundamentalist"? The neo-cons? Both are problomatic I think even though some are believers and some certainly are 'not'. Both add fuel to the mess.

 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 9:33 PM
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just some guy

 
it is my view that they are winning the war by being able to redefine the language at will, by poisoning the well of public discourse so that people whoe minds are already made up have stopped looking for or at any sourses that are not already identified as biased to their side.  they understand and are using effective methods of advertising and manipulation of public perception.  I use the term 'they' because there are specific groups of people, bound by their shared political, economic, moral or religious ideology who engage in purposeful actions to change the culture to make it better in their perspective(s).
 
Posted by just some guy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 10:44 PM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
This is the nature of politics my friend. The majority of the time. Most use those tactics. Liberals also. I agree that the social conservatives are much more profient at such tactic. Yes.

I do not feel right about using such tactics in defense. Human beings are not dogs to me. I love people in general. Yes, even believers.







 

 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 11:02 PM
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just some guy

 
there are three types of people in the world. 

People who read "The Prince" as a hot-to manual.

People who read it as a cautionary tale

And people who put others into three categories.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 22, 2009 - Monday - 7:44 AM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Yes. I suppose.

"And people who put others into three categories."

lol

- ASSumphilosopheo

My apologies.
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 22, 2009 - Monday - 8:09 AM
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*Deus Ex Machina*

 


 
 
'I am not atheist because its nice there is no God to punnish me for what bad things I have done. People come to atheism for different causes or reasons where as religion more often than not is inculcated into little people before they can think critically. Superstition re-enforced by community and familiy. Culture'

And of course, I didn't imply that all atheists, or even most atheists, find themselves railing against belief in God because they want moral autonomy. There are many different practical reasons why one could become one. Atheists and freethinkers are just as bound by sociological and cultural forces as is anyone. Religious belief may be reinforced by community and family, but so can a lack of religious belief, so can a hostility towards religion. For example, in the former Soviet Union, Atheism was institutionalized. High School textbooks constantly vilified religious belief. Belief in God was written in the books as an enemy of the people. It was a bourgouise invention designed to keep down the proletariat. So, atheism, just like with any other ideology, can be socially reinforced. There are many different factors, just as with religion.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on June 18, 2009 - Thursday - 6:17 PM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
"in the former Soviet Union, Atheism was institutionalized. High School textbooks constantly vilified religious belief. Belief in God was written in the books as an enemy of the people. It was a bourgouise invention designed to keep down the proletariat. So, atheism, just like with any other ideology, can be socially reinforced. There are many different factors, just as with religion."

Yes. Christians bring up the former Soviet Union and it offends some atheists. This 'is' an example of something very much like religion. Propaganda and dogmas. Control. Atheism is nothing special IMHO.

I do not forget.

I could never support any laws that would ban religion even though I personly would like it if people stopped believing in God. Even though I think that religion can be harmful in some ways.

Some people do not appreciate what they have it seems to me. I am just as weary of gooberzmenz and not just religions. People know that about me. Haha!

I do not see how one can be an free thinker and not hold 'all' civil liberties, not just separation of church and state, crucial.

If an politician smooches atheist butts 'a little' in a speech I am not necessarily impressed.

heh.
   






 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 18, 2009 - Thursday - 9:10 PM
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just some guy

 
"Even though I think that religion can be harmful in some ways."

while i disagree with your view of gubermints, I think this is the misconception that troubles me most on the internets among the atheists I have encountered.

If the statement were true, I read it as saying that you are willing to knowingly allow harm to occur, and that while you may feel bad about it you are content to allow it to continue.

perhaps a harsh interpretation, and if it is wrong, or i misunderstand you, please let me know.

yet i assert that the statement is untrue.  religion is one of the many beards used by people to justify their actions, and it is the actions that can be harmful.  religious, political, and philosophical beliefs can be said to 'inspire' people to act, but those beliefs (religious, political, etc) are shaped and reflect human nature and human will.  People create these beliefs to justify their actions, their biases, their preferences and prejudices.  The beliefs are clothes we put on ourselves to cover the nakedness of our mental selves.


 
Posted by just some guy on June 23, 2009 - Tuesday - 5:11 PM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
"while i disagree with your view of gubermints,"
 
They are fallable just as the people are fallable. They can look to scientist or not....same as the people. They can have their experts just as the people can. Also, some issues are not so cut and dry and so while I do not want "no government" I do want an system where the goobs are not micromanaging our lives to the extent that many so called "liberals" would have it when they have all the power. Yes, I am an conservative, but I am socially liberal also. 


"If the statement were true, I read it as saying that you are willing to knowingly allow harm to occur, and that while you may feel bad about it you are content to allow it to continue."

If you feel evil is an opinion then I do not understand why you find freedom for the people so disagreable to you. As far as allowing harm, in my view many times we can make a situation worse and make the problem longer lasting by using coercion and violence as the solution to problems. Laws are violence and coercion and so if we love people we will be very cautious when we regulate or ban things. 

My emotionalism that is at play here also is that we rob human beings of the dignity in changing on their own evolution in character and intelligence. Emotionally I can not treat others as dogs to be leashed or cattle. It hurts me deeply to have such little confidence in people....even believers.  

"perhaps a harsh interpretation, and if it is wrong, or i misunderstand you, please let me know."

You make me think. It is nice to have access to a free thinker like yourself. 

"yet i assert that the statement is untrue.  religion is one of the many beards used by people to justify their actions, and it is the actions that can be harmful.  religious, political, and philosophical beliefs can be said to 'inspire' people to act, but those beliefs (religious, political, etc) are shaped and reflect human nature and human will.  People create these beliefs to justify their actions, their biases, their preferences and prejudices.  The beliefs are clothes we put on ourselves to cover the nakedness of our mental selves."

'Yes'. Agreed. I am blind also at times. I certainly do not wish to be an harm. I feel most of us believer or not feels that way.

 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 23, 2009 - Tuesday - 8:42 PM
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just some guy

 
"free dum?" Cloud William, Star Trek tos, episode 225 - The Omega Glory

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
- these are good words, fine words, but they were not meant for the chiefs or kings, but for ALL the people.  They MUST apply equally to all the people, or they mean nothing!"  Captain Zap Brannigan, The Omega Glory  (best paraphrase I got without the videotape)


Your equation of government and religion I disagree with.  Like comparing apples and balistic missile systems it is.

knowingly allowing harm to occur makes you responsible for that harm, just as if you did the harmful things yourself, but with willful malice and forethought, because you saw it, knew it for what it was and did nothing.

Not talking about personal freedom (a human invention created for white property owners), I'm talking personal responsibility.  A parent may have a right to drink to excess, to be poor, and raise a chiuld in poverty, but a parent does not have the right or the freedom to withhold nedical treatment from a child in their care, or to engage in sexual activity with a child in their care, or to beat, starve or kill a child in their care.

Interesting that you fear 'liberals' taking away your much valued 'freedom'.  I think that fear response bears further investigation, but to do so would be personaly intrusive and off topic for the blog.  No worries, my knee jerks in predictable ways as well as anyone elses. 

last off topic proclamation from the soap box.  government is not good, it is not evil, it is a necessity.  in the absence of a functioning government a gov ernment will form.  My limited understanding of evolution and ecological niches indicate that weedlike governments will be the first to take root - warlords and the like.  The government of the United States was unique when it was formed, as a government of the people, and such.  The legal, moral and ethical rationale, basis and legitimacy of this government comes from the people, and nowhere else.  Not the divine right of kings.  not the superiority of one race over another.  fromn the people.  And that government exists to allow the people as much freedom as is practical for a social species living in close proximity and within the rule of law.  but that government requires that 'we the people' be responsible parties and participants.  If all you want is for your government to leave you the hell alone, you are an enemy of this nation, and as unamerican as Stalin or bin Laden.

{crash, bang, rattle, smash, clang, roll, bang!}
(gotta watch out for that first step when getting down off that high a soap box)
((so how are my reflexes doc?))

 
Posted by just some guy on June 24, 2009 - Wednesday - 3:42 AM
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sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Have you heard people talk about a resource based economy? If so, what do you think about it?

You don't have to get to this question right away.

:)

 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on June 24, 2009 - Wednesday - 4:50 AM
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just some guy

 
a phrase i may have heard, but I confess to both ignorance and apathy.  economics never were all that interesting to me.  accounting was, briefly, but not economics.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 24, 2009 - Wednesday - 7:47 AM
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just some guy

 
ok, did a quick look-see.  'blink' - not a big fan of revolutionary ideas or idealists.  not convinced that capitalism is by definition a bad thing.  just convinced that unregulated capitalism, in which those with the biggest piles of capital are allowed to control and rig the 'free' market, is a situation to be avoided.  money is too useful as a social lubricant to be too lightly discarded.
 
Posted by just some guy on June 26, 2009 - Friday - 9:13 PM
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