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“If we discover a desire within us that nothing in this world can satisfy, also we should begin to wonder if perhaps we were created for another world.”

*Deus Ex Machina*



Last Updated: 11/19/2009

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Gender: Male
Status: Single
Age: 20
Sign: Libra

Country: US
Signup Date: 3/14/2005
August 13, 2009 - Thursday 

Category: Religion and Philosophy
A great UK documentary on the modern atheist movement, and what the presenter has personal difficulties with.



I've been writing about this in a couple of blogs for a while now, and have commented on seeing something admirable (the legitimate criticism of the failings of religion) turn into a full-blown cultural movement. I must commend the many organizations that have started up after the publication of The God Delusion and the increasing atheist literature coming out that takes similar tones as Dawkins in trying to drive a stake through the heart of what is seen to be irrational superstitious belief. Throughout the past couple of years the blogosphere has also grown extensively with quite a few atheist/humanist blogs taking the post popular positions in the internet (Pharyngula, Friendly Atheist, Skepchick, etc.).

My personal problem with the new atheist movement is the cult-like admiration for many of these 'intellectuals' by those equally pissed off at religion. By definition, atheism cannot be a religion, yet it does not stop it from possessing religious-like traits that are slowly being picked up by its followers.
I've seen many self-professed intellectuals and skeptics take as almost a priori truth anything that many of these public atheists say, such as 'religion is the root of most wars', 'religious violence is the main threat to civilization today', 'nothing is out of bounds for anyone who believes that god is on their side', etc.

I find many of these assertions to be very problematic, and hopefully I can address them in future blogs, but it is a pity that far too many people do not seem to apply, or even want to apply their oft-talked about skepticism towards the claims made by their fellow atheists.

Atheism today seems to adopt almost uncritically certain views that are dubious at best, and not at all unanimously accepted by contemporary scholarship:

1) A war/conflict model between religion and science.
Science in this view, is the sole begetter of truth, and religion actively has and continues to suppress the legitimate search for truth.

This to me seems to be a very selective way of looking at history, of simply accepting via word of mouth certain major historical events in which religion was seen as opposing science, and thus proving that religion has always opposed science and critical thinking. As with everything though, the reality of it is far more interesting and complex than many would like to admit. I want to address this in some later blog, but some good books have been written on this topic: Science and Religion: A historical introduction

2) A view of religion as the biggest cause of wars and conflict throughout history.
Yet again, this view is a very immature and caricaturized version of reality. It is a simple view that is easy to accept because it paints the world in black and white terms, terms which we're all very much used to and feel very comfortable with; which is interestingly enough a strong criticism that atheists press against religion. Again, this is yet another interesting topic that has been addressed by contemporary scholarship, from history and sociology, that has been found wanting: The Gods of War: Is Religion the Primary Cause of Violent Conflict?, and Sins of Omission: What 'Religion and Violence' arguments Ignore

3) Adherence to outdated Freudian psychology in which belief in God is seen to be nothing more than a psychological need to feel security, purpose, power, and comfort in this life.
There have been explanations that aim to show that human beings are naturally disposed towards religious belief and ritual because of certain innate or native “mental tools.” Some argue that we have these mental tools because they, or the religion that they spawn, is and/or was adaptive for our ancestors, and were thus passed down to us.
The basic argument, as summarized by William Lane Craig is thus:

(1) The development of the human mind through natural history has provided those minds with a number of special properties.
(2) When considering the natural and social world, these properties encourage humans to believe in gods.
(3) Therefore, the development of human minds has produced belief in gods (i.e., God
(4) Therefore, belief in gods is false.
is an “accident” of evolution.)

However, this argument commits the genetic fallacy. This type of reasoning aims to argue for the truth or falsity of a belief simply from considerations of the origin of belief. But, of course, perfectly true beliefs can emerge even from crazy sources. To see that this reasoning is faulty, imagine you telling someone that you believe democracy is the best system of government. The person you're talking to however, replies that the only reason you believe that is because you were born in a democratic country, and thus, democracy is not the best system of government. Of course this line of reasoning is invalid, and so too is the type of reasoning used against the existence of God based on how it is that you arrived at your beliefs.

Also as a supplement to Freud, religious belief is also seen to be a virus of the mind, a contagious meme that spreads from person to person. Of course, Atheism too can be regarded as a meme, science as well, philosophy, and just about every world view. Memetic theory is not regarded to be the best explanation for why certain beliefs spread through cultures. It is dubious at best, and pseudo-science at its worst. Regardless of the fact that the argument is completely tautological, and also a genetic fallacy, it seems to ignore the fact that atheism too has served a sociological role throughout history that can be seen to be psychological in nature as well.For more, check out: The Twilight of Atheism, Three Challenges for the Survival of Memetics

4) A failure to recognize that Theism, even if false, may be rationally justified. This is something that completely irritates me and drives me away from most atheists on myspace, the sheer hypocrisy of accusing religious believers of being arrogant because they dare to profess to either knowing, or believing they may have found the 'truth'. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who wrote that if theists are to be called intolerant for believing that other theistic faiths are wrong, then it is the atheist who is the most intolerant of all for believing all faiths are wrong.

There is a difference between believing that someone posesses a false belief (and we all possess false beliefs of one kind or another), and believing that said person is wholely irrational for believing in something false. This is where the field of epistemology sheds some light. You may hold a false belief, but it does not follow that you are therefore irrational because of holding a false belief. This is a distinction that many philosophers have made, and something I think more atheists should take notice of. Philosopher William Rowe, an atheist, wrote about this in his Friendly Atheism.

5) A view of science as the sole begetter of Truth. As Peter Atkins loves to repeat "There is nothing that Science can't explain." Scientism as its called, is an offshoot of a now dead movement within philosophy called empiricism. A short summarization of this can be found in David Hume’s principle of empirical verifiability: “If we take in our hand any volume of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance- let us ask, does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quality or number? No.  Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matters of fact or experience? No. Commit it to then to the flames, for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.” Nothing not verifiable by direct empirical means or that is analytically true by definition must be discarded as nonsense. Yet this principle itself is self-defeating. We can use the same criteria to judge its falsehood: Does Hume’s criteria apply to his own doctrine? Is the principle of verifiability true by definition? No. Is there any way to confirm it empirically? No, so then we should toss his principle to the flames. A dogmatic insistence on empiricism is a flaw in much atheist thinking “There is no scientific evidence…thus it must be false” is faulty reasoning.

Science is a great tool, but by no means is it the sole begetter of truth. There are indeed several things that cannot be explained or discovered by science which we all hold to and are perfectly rational to believe in regardless:

A)Logic and mathematics: Science presupposes logic and mathematics, otherwise it could not function. Yet logical and mathematical proofs aren’t the kinds of ‘things’ that you discover through the scientific method, they are arrived at through other means by philosophers. The law of non-contradiction is not a law that could ever be discovered through science, as it cannot be judged as true by simple induction, which is what science relies on. In short, math and logic are presupposed by science. Trying to prove them by science would be arguing in circles.

B) Metaphysical truths such as ‘there are other minds other than my own’ , that the external world is real, or that the past was not created 5 minutes ago with the appearance of age. Science cannot prove or disprove these things as science can only examine the physical data available, which is the very thing that is being called into question.

C) Ethical beliefs about statements of value: Science cannot comment or make any judgments as to why the actions of Nazi medical doctors were any more immoral than the actions of American doctors. Ethical judgments are normative, and as such, are beyond the reach of science, which is confined to descriptive role. Atheists for the most part fail to understand the challenge that is presented to them by theists when it comes to morality. They severely misunderstand the challenge to explain where morality comes from by thinking the Theist means that without belief in God, an atheist would not be able to act morally or be able to recognize moral facts. Yet the challenge isn't this, the challenge is where the atheist grounds his moral theory if it isn't on a transcendent creator. This is a very important and valid challenge that more of them would do well to address.

D)Aesthetic judgments: Just like ethics, science cannot analyze what is beautiful or not. These are again value judgments that cannot be arrived at through science. Science can measure what it is that people typically find as beautiful, or what it is that they say they find beautiful, but science cannot in and of itself describe what is beautiful.

E) Science itself: Science cannot be justified by the scientific method. The method itself is not arrived at through science, to do so would be again, arguing in circles.

So, contrary to popular scientific notions, there are indeed other ways of knowing beyond the reach of science. One would be well advised to stay away from the outdated empiricism of scientists like Dawkins and Atkins.
One good work exploring this is The limits of science.

To end, I want to just say I'm in the same boat as the rest of you. I don't know if God exists or not, but I want to know. I believe the proposition "God Exists" is either true or false, and its truth or falsity is of great importance, as it would have consequences for Ethics, Cosmology, Aesthetics, and just about every realm of life we encounter. I want to also know if it is even possible to know that a God exists. And even if it is impossible to have knowledge that said God exists (which is my position as an agnostic), I want to know whether or not it is then probable that said God exists. And I also would like to know whether or not it is rationally justifiable to believe said God exists. These questions matter to me. Questions of value, meaning, ethics, justice, liberty, and morality matter to me above all else, which is why I've been so drawn to the field of Philosophy.

I want to know what is true, and I wish more people did as well, not just pay lip service to it, but actually love truth, because without it, human life itself collapses. Without truth, there can be no trust, without trust, there can be no relationships, without relationships, we are but empty solitary shells in a constant 'war of all against all'.   Those who pride themselves as the sole bearers of 'reason', 'rationality' and 'truth' should value these things as much as they claim to.

However,  I'm beginning to be extremely cautious and distrustful of the new atheist movement. They've become just as Fanatical as the religious fanatics they so despise. A movement that is supposed to be a knife that carves out the tragedies brought about by fundamentalist thinking is slowly acquiring those very characteristics they so despise. Look at the top blogs on myspace and tell me that people like 'God Is Imaginary', 'The Gadfly' and the rest of the more rational than thou gang resembles anything like the true lovers of truth and wisdom we've come to learn about like Socrates and Aristotle. I see more and more people jumping on the bandwagon every day, and I frankly want nothing to do with it. I have a feeling that if I were ever to change my mind and accept Theism, I would be lumped in together with Fred Phelps and the rest of the 'superstitious religious fanatics', and as Dawkin's documentary calls them, an "Enemy of Reason".

I'm an unbeliever. I'm unconvinced. But I want to know the truth. Let's try to follow it wherever it leads. Lets not just pay lip service to it. Anthony Flew's conversion is just one example of atheist intolerance. One of the leading atheists in the world became a Deist, and of course said conversion must be due to his being senile. Let us respect that search for truth.

It was very telling how very few unbelievers came out to take on my arguments in my 'Is religion a cause for good or evil in the world?' blog. I would think that something that tries to undercut the very same tired old argument atheists make on their blogs every single day would get more attention, but of course it barely got a peep, save for a few individuals who were willing to read it and try to ask if it had any merit.

As for me, I'm staying away from the atheist bandwagon. That's a sinking ship destined to blow up. A true freethinker doesn't need a scarlet letter A on their profile to let everyone knows where he/she stands. Anti-religious propaganda is everywhere, all I ask is that we learn to filter through it and be consistent in our skepticism.

Listing 1-50 of 1097
NoFunBaby

 
thats how it is! i agree to the fullest! brilliantly written. cheers, Nofun

 
Posted by NoFunBaby on July 23, 2009 - Thursday - 10:11 AM
[Reply to this
Polybius of Megalopolis

 

In the video below the Pythagorean Fibonacci numbers are discussed revealing both the sophisticated nature, and design of our reality: 





Atheists will claim that there are in fact no laws that govern the universe, because every law that we know of or mathematical structure is simply our false perception. LoL...Well if that is the case then things like evolution could not exist, because there is no structured pattern for phenomena to be testable. So according to that premise the earth rotates around the sun for no reason at all; it is completely chaotic, and it could stop rotating at any moment for no reason at all (this is the exceptionally problematic premise of any chaos over cosmos consideration as the foundational premise of our reality, because it disregards all scientific evidence demonstrating any kind of pattern as being only a 'false perception,' thereby making the collection of such evidence for any scientific inquiry delusive). Gravity could not exist, or any other scientific law for that matter. LoL...Science itself could not exist, because nothing would be testable. It is utterly irrational, but to an atheist it is rational.



Thank you for your blog, and thanks for being my friend.

Polybius,
203-210 BC 


 
Posted by Polybius of Megalopolis on August 19, 2009 - Wednesday - 6:53 PM
[Reply to this
Tom

 

Report: North Korea Publicly Executes Christian Woman for Distributing Bible

Friday, July 24, 2009
 

SEOUL, South Korea —  North Korea publicly executed a Christian woman last month for distributing the Bible, which is banned in the communist nation, South Korean activists said Friday.

 
Posted by Tom on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 8:41 PM
[Reply to this
Howie

 

 
Posted by Howie on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 5:49 PM
[Reply to this
Howie

 
Complete Version:



 
Posted by Howie on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 6:16 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Intolerance is everywhere.

"Us" vs. "Them"

Terrible.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 6:19 PM
[Reply to this
Brandt

 
Man, I am very sorry to hear that. Those things should not be so in the world, Do they have intolerance for all religions or is it just Christian?

 
Posted by Brandt on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 3:45 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Brandt, I don't see you subscribed to my blog.

Do it!

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 3:49 AM
[Reply to this
Fred

 
Hey asshole, remember this?  I do.  WTF?

Photobucket





 
Posted by Fred on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:52 PM
[Reply to this
Jurgen

 
Yes.  You are a fanatic.

Pt?
 
Posted by Jurgen on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:56 PM
[Reply to this
Fred

 
Who the fuck are you?
 
Posted by Fred on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 11:15 PM
[Reply to this
Grau Geist

 
Rather than have you search the whole blog for my comment, I blogdicked here.

I loved some of the points you made. I do think that Dawkins quite effectively proved beyond reasonable doubt that one all powerful creator/god makes no sense. There is no reason not to believe, however, that we as humans who can imagine much can imagine a race of people like ourselves from another planet/dimension who understand the universe in ways we can ONLY imagine. That is, a race that has found a way to keep something of its consciousness alive after its corporeal existence has ended. If such a race exists, it may be able to do this for us or show us how to do this.
 
Posted by Grau Geist on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:47 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Thank you for the comment.

Quick question, in what way did Dawkins prove beyond reasonable doubt a God cannot exist?
To my understanding, the only real argument he gives against God's existence is the 'if God exist, he must be more complex than us' argument, which has been shown to be utter bullocks by Plantinga here

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 6:38 PM
[Reply to this
Grau Geist

 
Since Dawkins (and I) believes that all things must evolve, the existence of an all powerful god that has always been is impossible. This god must have evolved to that point of all powerfulness. And so, the cycle is neverending as we must discover where the all powerful god came from.

Dawkins knew he could not prove that such a god did nto exist; he only sought to deny its existence by making its existence to be so improbable as to be impossible. With this aspect of his argument, he makes quite a compelling case.

All his arguments do, however, is show the lack of legitimacy of monotheistic religions. This is not to say that a religion cannot worship one god only, but that to claim that that god is the only one defies logic. So, I suppose I am saying Dawkins refuted monotheism (which demands intolerance of other faiths, for how can one be tolerant of another faith when one thinks one's god is the ONLY TRUE god?), but left the door wide open for paganism and polytheistic faiths.
 
Posted by Grau Geist on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 7:28 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
What does 'intolerance' mean to you exactly?
There is a huge difference between believing that your view is the correct one, to being intolerant of the other faiths. Monotheism does not demand intolerance. One can be a perfectly good Christian and respect that certain other people have not come to the same conclusions as you. Jesus specifically commanded that you love not just your neighbor, but your enemies as well. The story of the Samaritan shows perfectly well how this acceptance and love covers all people. The Samaritans were hated and vilified by the Jews of the time, and it was terrible taboo to even be seen talking to one, Jesus completely broke all social norms and redefined what 'love your neighbor' meant.

If I believed in one God, and I believed this God to be manifested in Jesus, it does not mean that I must therefore be intolerant of other faiths. Christians and Muslims have much more in common than they do with Atheists, why is it that a rejection of all faiths does not harbor intolerance, but the embrace of one does? Dawkins is clearly wrong here.

Secondly, evolution applies to contingent beings such as ourselves. We know that complexity in the natural world is built up through natural selection, mutations, etc. However, it does not follow that a non-contingent being (A necessary being as defined by the philosophers) is bound to the same process which he set in motion. I'm sorry, but Dawkins is completely out of his territory in here, he is applying his evolutionary biology to a concept of God that he cannot comprehend. Like I said, there are many better arguments for God's non-existence that have been put forth by philosophers. Dawkin's view is naive and has been shown to be false.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 7:37 PM
[Reply to this
Grau Geist

 
Intolerant could be anything that excludes one religion to the benefit of another. In the case of Islam, we can see where non believers are called infidels, which leads to violence and other acts. In Christianity, non believers will not be "saved." The one god thing makes very arrogant believers, IMHO. I do not think, however, that belief in Jesus MUST preclude the existence of other gods. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light." What he says after this is what I find most interesting: "No one comes to the father except through me." But, if the "father" is NOT the only god, then you can conceivably find another deity that wants you. But, by not believing in Jesus, you will surely not go to the father.

Perhaps I accept Dawkins' argument more because I agree with it. Some different perspectives are appreciated.

 
Posted by Grau Geist on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 7:55 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Well, I've posted the philosopher Alvin Plantinga's rebuttal to Dawkin's argument that a creator God must be equally, if not more complex.

As for intolerance, again, you will always have your fundamentalists who view everyone else as 'the enemy' and who indeed do practice sever intolerance, but I don't base my views on them, I try to judge the message from the source itself, not from Jerry Falwell's or Billy Graham's interpretations.

Why define intolerant as 'anything that excludes one religion to the benefit of another'?
There are other types of intolerance that I've seen, for example, atheistic intolerance that views all religious folks as simpletons and delusional, and a more universalist church type of intolerance in which all religion is true. These folks can be just as intolerant with anyone who dares to disagree with the notion that 'everyone gets into heaven no matter what'. Our human sense of justice is suspicious of an eternal punishment, but so are we suspicious of the notion that evil men like Hitler do not deserve their just rewards. We may flinch at the thought of punishment, but we cry out for justice to be served, and these universalists tend to think that no matter who you were or what you did, everything ends up all nice and gravy in the end. Anyone who disagrees with them is thus intolerant and a bigot.

Intolerance is far more than just one religion to the exclusion of another, it can also be the exclusion of all religions, and so can it be the inclusion of all religions.



 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 8:30 PM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Intolerance. It is not always a bad thing necessarily.
 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 5:42 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
There is good intolerance, and there's extremist intolerance.

I agree.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 29, 2009 - Wednesday - 12:35 AM
[Reply to this
sumphilosopheô[H+]
Abolitionist Project

 
Just because I see problems with religion in no way means I want to become an control freak. I like to have my opinions but I have a different style in 'being' one who desires religions to die.

It is because I am not sure of what would come of it. The control freakism. More harm than good? What 'might' we become in 'fighting'.

I am not a Christian anymore very true, but I am still a pacifist and value very much volunteerism. There is a certain attitude on life from those.

I do not enjoy being critical of believer 'inside'. Yet....I want religion to die off.

That being said, I will not boss the others.



 
Posted by sumphilosopheô[H+] on July 29, 2009 - Wednesday - 1:01 AM
Brandt

 
Very good response, are you familiar with the book of Daniel? Though King Nebuchadnezzar believed himself to be a god, Daniel served him well and respected him as his King. Jesus says obey him first, then the laws of your land, he was all for peace and unity up until the point of going against God's will. 

 
Posted by Brandt on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 4:05 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
My Bible reading is actually a bit rusty :P

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 6:22 AM
[Reply to this
Grau Geist

 
Can you link the rebuttal?

I wonder, though, whether monotheistic religions necessitate intolerance by their very design. I do not think the same is true of non-monotheistic religions. I suppose this was the point I was trying to make. Of course any people can be intolerant, but are they programmed that way by the doctrine of their religion?
 
Posted by Grau Geist on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 8:37 PM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
But if the core message of said religion is the opposite of being intolerant, then the claim that said religious is intolerant seems to be dubious.

And here's the link.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 9:57 PM
[Reply to this
Grau Geist

 
They were intolerant in the sense that they spouted off the "ONLY one god" thing. By saying there is ONLY one god, you are necessarily intolerant of others' beliefs in a different god.
 
Posted by Grau Geist on August 4, 2009 - Tuesday - 12:23 AM
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
To below:

So, do you think the messages that Jesus preached was inherently intolerant, and that it can truly be blamed for causing so much division and horror throughout history?

So, what is the alternative? Jesus says "Love your neighbor and your enemy", and the followers twist that and refuse to follow it but instead they chose to persecute anyone who disagrees with them...who is at fault here? The followers, or the message of Jesus?
It seems like there's a no win here, Christianity loses if it teaches a message of tolerance, it also loses if it teaches a message of persecution.

I guess Jesus should have said nothing at all then rather than try to break the cycle of violence?
I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Dawkins is out of his league here.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:11 PM
Grau Geist

 
CVorrection: In the same way, a monotheistic religion might mean to be tolerant (take out not please)
 
Posted by Grau Geist on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:08 PM
Grau Geist

 
Trying to think of a good example to show that you can say one thing and truly mean it, but the effect of what you say is the complete opposite. It is sort of like telling a child NOT to go into the woods at night. By telling the child not to go, you are making him aware of the place and potential excitements of doing so. In the same way, a monotheistic religion might mean not to be tolerant, but its message of monotheism is inherently intolerant, thereby rendering the message of tolerance useless. Another example: a movie is controversial because it makes the catholic church out to be a monster. The catholic church has a publicity campaign saying what a bad movie it is. Paradoxically, the movie does better because of the media exposure.

Going to link now.

 
Posted by Grau Geist on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:07 PM
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
In essence, I just think there are better arguments against God's existence than anything Harris, Hitchens, Dennet, or Dawkins have ever mustered.


 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 6:40 PM
[Reply to this
Nick

 
You mischaracterize and misunderstand the movement. You compare us to Nazis.  Are atheists beating up or murdering Christians because of Dawkins and Harris?  Fuck no.  So what is your problem?  Why should we not let our atheism out of the closet?  Should homosexuals pretend to be straight?  Should black people pretend to be white?  Fuck you and your BS.  We are what we are. We can have pride and fuck anyone who doesn't like or understand it.  We've had to tolerate centuries of religious conflicts and being misunderstood because of the lies and atrocities of believers.  I'm not saying that religion is the only social problem we have right now, but it is at the top.  And even though you may not like it, your going to have to deal with what you call militant atheism because we are not going away and we are not going to be silent.  We are going to criticize and ridicule and do all the rest to get our point across.  The world is changing.  You better get with the program.
 
Posted by Nick on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 3:35 AM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
Where in the entire blog did Andres ever say, or even imply, that atheists should be silent? Andres is an agnostic, & he has atheist friends like me & Faust - indeed, I even saw some kudos from some religion haters. Andres did not by any means say that atheists should resign themselves to being marginalized, & he obviously didn't mean that militant atheists are literally like Nazis. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could even make such a jump, as this blog clearly attacks the Attack-Anyone-Who-Disagrees-With-Us atheists, rather than the Tolerate-Us atheists, & I'm puzzled by how hard it is for militant atheists to recognize the diference between the two themselves.

And "Get with the program" is always just a call for conformity. Indeed, it's the very same kind of fascist attitude that people like Dawkins rail against.
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 6:49 AM
[Reply to this
Bobby
Bobby Ll

 
Your problem is that you see us as either AAWDWU atheists or TU atheists.  Is there no room for middle ground?  I don't see myself at either of those extremes.  I am in the middle, but you and TTUA never asked me what my position is.  You and he just assumed.

Throughout this blog you will see time after time TTUA trying to tell me what me and all the "militant" atheists believe.  He assumes that we all think a certain way.  It is very evident from his posts.  He is also using the same tactics that he condemns us for using.  He is being both hypocritical and a bigot.  I may have exaggerated a bit to make my point, but you need do nothing more than read a few pages of this blog to see that what I am telling you is true.

 
Posted by Bobby on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 7:22 AM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
From what I've seen of your behavior, you are an AAWDWU atheist. The fact that you've been overly defensive against a blog which merely identifes a problem within the atheist movement (namely, people who have an obnoxious attitude & who try to scapegoat the religious, etc, of which there are many), which you totally misconstrued as an all-out attack against the whole atheist movement (which it clearly isn't), & the fact that you're telling people to "Get with the program," among other things, shows your guilt.
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:26 PM
[Reply to this
Fred

 
Stop judging and stereotyping me.  I dont care what you've seen.  You don't know me, punk.  The problem is not the critique of atheism.  The problem is that you and TTUA are using strawman arguments by presuming to already know what I believe.  You slap a label on me and think that I'm a "Sam Harris atheist," whatever the fuck that means.  He is also a hypocrite for insulting me while demonizing me for doing the same thing.  You are a hypocrite for claiming that ridicule is childish when you do the same thing with your profile.  Calling it a joke doesn't help you.  You obviously dont get it though.



 
Posted by Fred on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:50 PM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
If you think that a fun joke is equivalent to ridicule, you obviously take life way too seriously. Really, get that bee hive out of your ass. Ridicule is by definition tinged with at least a little bit of malice - I, however, intend no malice with my profile pic & screen name, & the silliness inhrent in both should make that obvious.

Now, the blog didn't say that Nick/CM/Whoever-the-Fuck-You-Are is a Sam Harris atheist, it said that Sam harris atheists believe such & such, & that therefore they should be condemned as fudamentalist in nature. If you didn't agree with the aforeentioned views listed in the blog, then it obviously wasn't directed at you. You're the one who chose to take it personally & drastically misinterpret this blog as an all-out attack against the entire atheist movement, you were quite hostile right off the bat, & now you're surprised that people thought of you as a militant atheist? 
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on July 28, 2009 - Tuesday - 9:41 PM
[Reply to this
Tom

 
Nick...deep Yoga breath.  This is just a blog on Myspace.
 
Posted by Tom on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:04 AM
[Reply to this
Bobby
Bobby Ll

 
Tom the bigot posts:

Photobucket

Explain yourself, bigot.

 
Posted by Bobby on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 6:41 AM
[Reply to this
Richard Nelson
Richard Nelson kjkj

 
Fuck you, Tom.  Why don't you tell me how I want to blow you up again, bigot.  You are a piece of shit, but I still don't want bad things to happen to you.  That was uncalled for.  How would you like to be called a terrorist, asshole?
 
Posted by Richard Nelson on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:21 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Given the fact that he, and Daddy, have both received death threats by numerous unbelievers, why shouldn't he be careful?

I'm sure you've received the same from Christians. There are lunatics everywhere. Being a Christian or an atheist doesn't make you more prone to kill someone (actually, I'm sure you disagree, you're the Sam Harris type who thinks religious people are capable of far more violence than non-religious folk). However, the fact that you've shared nothing but hateful remarks towards him is grounds enough for him to be careful. Don't take it personal, its only the language that you use against him that makes him paranoid, not your particular unbelief.


 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:26 AM
[Reply to this
• TDA •

 
Given the fact that he, and Daddy, have both received death threats by numerous unbelievers, why shouldn't he be careful?

So are you taking their word for this or is there proof?



 
Posted by • TDA • on August 3, 2009 - Monday - 7:57 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Yes, just find Daddy's blog and scroll back through the blog comments.

Unless you honestly believe no atheist would ever do such a thing.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on August 3, 2009 - Monday - 4:25 PM
[Reply to this
• TDA •

 
Unless I believe no atheist would ever do such a thing? Come on dude. Really? What do you take me for? Of course I believe atheist are capable of such things. What I find hard to believe is 'Daddy'. His tactics have been exposed on more than one occasion. Have a look at my blog. What's more, how is an exchange on this charmer's blog proof of anything? You do realize that he has other profiles don't you? Not for nothing, and I really don't care whether you believe it or not, but I'm privy to certain private info provided by "friends" of Denis (Daddy) that exposes his dishonesty. This is why I have to take anything that he says or claims with extreme skepticism. As for Tom? Well, I think his dishonesty is quite obvious.



 
Posted by • TDA • on August 4, 2009 - Tuesday - 3:29 AM
[Reply to this
Ken
Ken k

 
"Given the fact that he, and Daddy, have both received death threats by numerous unbelievers, why shouldn't he be careful? 

I never said he shouldn't be, but why did he call me a terrorist?  Does him receiving death threats form someone else justify that?

"(actually, I'm sure you disagree, you're the Sam Harris type who thinks religious people are capable of far more violence than non-religious folk)."

You see, this is exactly WTF I am talking about, you fucking dick head.  Why do you assume that I believe that or that I read Sam Harris?  You know more about him than I do or would ever want to.  

"However, the fact that you've shared nothing but hateful remarks towards him is grounds enough for him to be careful. Don't take it personal, its only the language that you use against him that makes him paranoid, not your particular unbelief. "

You weren't there for all of our conversations.  We go way back, and I never threatened him.  I gave him plenty of chances to have a good debate, but it is impossible.  Of course, that doesnt matter to a bigot like you.

 
Posted by Ken on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:41 AM
[Reply to this
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Nope. Nothing matters, because I'm such a bigot that all I see is fundie atheists doing the very things they criticize. Perhaps I've fallen victim to it myself, I can at the very least admit to it. Can you?

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:43 AM
[Reply to this
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
I don't even think you should even concede that much. You have not once implied that all atheists are like that, you've merely attacked obnoxious atheists as being like obnoxious theists. Many atheists have even applauded you. The militant atheists here are just being overly defensive to an extreme.
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 6:52 AM
[Reply to this
Bobby
Bobby Ll

 
No, just all atheists that he labels militant including moderate ones like me.  Go fuck yourself God's Vagina.  You are a hypocrite too.
 
Posted by Bobby on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 7:23 AM
[Reply to this
Fred

 
Below:

No, but that is your strawman rebuttal against me, bigot.

 
Posted by Fred on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 10:53 PM
*Deus Ex Machina*

 
Anyone who doesn't like you is a hypocrite, I see.

 
Posted by *Deus Ex Machina* on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 6:40 PM
Gay 4 Obama
Dirty Jingles

 
A hypocrite? I hardly see how. 
 
Posted by Gay 4 Obama on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:26 PM
Bobby
Bobby Ll

 
I am not a bigot.  You've admitted to being a hypocrite.  You aren't any better than me.  Your bigotry is not because of your criticism of atheism, it is your assumptions, stereotypes and mischaracterization that makes you a bigot.  I don't do that to Christians.
 
Posted by Bobby on July 27, 2009 - Monday - 5:53 AM
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