July 29, 2005
by Josh Gross (joshg@sherdog.com)

Despite recent troubles with the law, a contentious court case in which he sued his former promoter and the pressures that come from headlining a fight in his home state against a man with a legendary last name, life is good for B.J. Penn.

With the grandiose vision of filling 20,000 seats inside Honolulu's Aloha Stadium, home for the NFL's Pro Bowl, K-1 approached Penn about fighting Renzo Gracie (pictures), who, despite a serious downturn in his career over the past four years, still carries with him the stature that colors the first family of mixed martial arts.

Before it's all said and done, Penn hopes that his surname holds as much weight. And he's got a vision, very much his own, on how to make that happen.

His is a story of defiance. Of breaking rules and, smartly or foolishly, challenging authority. With B.J. Penn, there is much to discuss, particularly on the eve of his first K-1 main event, which will be carried throughout North America via tape-delayed pay-per-view this Sunday.

Josh Gross: I remember talking to you before you fought Jens Pulver (pictures), which was ages ago, and you said one of the reasons you trained in San Jose with AKA was because the Islands offered so many distractions and there was trouble out there. Was [the incident with the police, in which Penn was arrested for allegedly assaulting a police officer outside a night club in Waikiki] a situation where you were prophetic, that's exactly what happened?

B.J. Penn: This is just something that happened. Something that took place. Life is like a box of chocolates. There's nothing I could do about it.

Gross: Have you felt that way at all since returning to Hawaii or has it been a purely positive thing for you?

Penn: Yeah, purely positive. Back home I don't have to wait in traffic to go anywhere because the other island, Oahu is just like a regular city. Hilo is like a small town. One minute to get to the gym. One minute to get home. Not like an hour to get to the gym and an hour to home and wasting all that time. But I'm a lot better. I'm a lot happier fighter. I don't take fighting as serious as I did back then. I just have fun. That's why if it's not fun for me I don't want to even do it. So just having a good time.

Gross: So if it's not fun for you, there's no point. What are you current goals? What keeps you fighting?

Penn: My only goal was to get the UFC belt. After that happened, I don't know, I just fight for fun now. Just to have a good time. I still like fighting. I enjoy it. Everything else is just boring to me. I mean I'm a human being first. I do whatever I want first and fighting comes second to me. I just live my life and have a good time and just have fun.

Gross: You're fortunate. You grew up in a pretty good financial situation. You didn't have to worry about much. Did that have a big impact on how you handled the situation with the UFC? You figured, "I'm going to go off and do my own thing because I can do it"?

Penn: No. I always wanted to fight in the UFC. It was just me looking at what K-1 could offer me. They could offer me new fighters to fight with. They could offer me exposure in Japan. They wanted to pay me a bunch of money. And I told the UFC, "I don't want to hold you guys hostage. I'll fight for whatever you guys want me to fight for too. Let's do it both. Look, I got it written in this K-1 contract I can fight in UFC, too. You know what I mean? Let's do it. I'll fight in different weights or in each one, you know. And it doesn't really come down to, like you said, I could live a good life. I don't fight to live, I live to fight. You know what I mean? I'm not somebody who has to fight to eat a piece of food that night. I'm not a billionaire or something but I got food on the table. I always eat. I'll never go hungry. But I live to fight because I love to fight. You know what I mean? I'm not forced to do it. It's just something I love to do and the situation was just good exposure for me in Japan, good exposure for me in the U.S. I was trying to become a worldwide fighter but the UFC cut the neck on me on the U.S. side. So, whatever.

Gross: I heard there was a deal on the table for you to re-sign with the UFC but it was contingent upon you apologizing. Is that true?

Penn: Yes, that is very true.

Gross: Who demanded that you apologize and who were you supposed to apologize to?

Penn: It was demanded that I say I'm sorry to all the fans. That I let them down, and this and that. And let down the UFC and that I know I made a mistake and now I know that. It was a mistake leaving and now I know it was a mistake.

Gross: So this was supposed to be a public apology. It wasn't behind closed doors to [UFC President] Dana (White) or anything like that?

Penn: Yeah, strictly public apology. I mean if would have done it I would have been on "The Ultimate Fighter" season two probably with Hughes now, and this and that. Getting my face out there. But, yeah, that's how it goes. That's how things are. Everything happens for a reason. But I'm sure things will work its way out later and I think I'll be fighting in the UFC one day.

Gross: Are there any regrets? Obviously apologizing, it's not something you want to do or be forced into. Unless you really mean it, there's no point, right?

Penn: If I really meant it then I'd do it in a second. "Hey man, I'm really sorry for leaving. This and that." But I don't really believe it, so why am I going to go out and do it? If Dana wants to feel that he saves face that way, then that's how he feels and that's his business. And if I feel that I want to save face my way, then that's my business. I'm not going to go up there and do something that I don't believe I should be doing just to get my face on TV and do this and this and that. And basically just give up everything, trying to take my manhood asking me to do something I don't believe is right.

Gross: So why do you feel — I mean it sounds like there is, maybe animosity is not the right word, but there is still hard feelings — why do you feel that one day you'll be back in the UFC?

Penn: I don't think it's hard feelings. Of course, everybody knows how Dana is on a professional level when he gets mad. A lot of decisions from him are made emotionally. But it still is business and I think business-wise we will be in there again. We just keep winning our fights. We keep learning our things. We keep growing as a fighter. Getting my name out there. I'm still doing things. This next show will be shown in 60 countries around the world. We're the main event, the first time a mixed martial arts fight has been in any kind of [K-1] Grand Prix. We're the main event. We probably won't be huge on pay-per-view in the U.S., but the hardcore fans will probably watch it. So we're still getting our name out there a little. But in the other countries we're blasting our name out there. My last fight with Lyoto wasn't shown on TV. It was a lackluster fight. But the Ludwig fight was shown on TV. So we're pushing. We're getting our name out there.

Gross: How much are you guys doing behind the scenes to get K-1 more interested in promoting MMA fights and putting MMA fights on TV? If you're doing anything at all.

Penn: No, no. We're pushing Rumble World Entertainment. But when K-1 comes to town and they want some help with stuff we have a good business relationship with them and we help them out.

Gross: Since you fought Hughes, obviously you fought Rodrigo Gracie and you fought Ryoto Machida (pictures) and you had another fight. But do you feel that you've been challenged at all since you started taking those fights? They're good fighters but they're not the top-level fighters — not Gomi and Hughes.

Penn: Definitely. I got a lot from this last fight with Lyoto. I really learned a lot. What really works. That was definitely stepping into the fountain of knowledge in that fight. I found out what I can do in there, a lot of different stuff. I really grew a lot, I feel, as a fighter in that fight. But I mean, to say that those guys aren't the same kind of caliber as Gomi and Hughes when I finished Gomi and I finished Hughes and I didn't finish Rodrigo and I didn't finish Lyoto, those guys are very good fighters too. It's just perception of people. But I've been in the ring with all those guys. I know if I'm in the ring with Hughes again, I'll finish him again. Gomi same thing. Actually, next time I fight Rodrigo, if it ever does happen, I'd put him away and finish him. Definitely, I've grown as a fighter since these last couple fights. Not to say Gomi and Hughes haven't grown. I mean they're awesome. They're great fighters. Look what Gomi's done, knocking everybody out. Hughes coming back, beating all those guys again and this and that. So, I mean, it's not like they're on a tear but I feel I'm a great fighter and contend with anyone.

Gross: There's an argument out there that basically the fights that you've taken against these heavier guys puts you in a "no lose" situation. If you lose the fight, so what? You fought a bigger guy. If you win then you get a lot of accolades. Do you feel you're putting yourself in a "no lose" situation where a loss doesn't really hurt you and there's really not much to gain out of it?

Penn: The only thing they can say that about is about the Lyoto fight or something because I fought Ludwig — if I had lost that would have been terrible. I fought Rodrigo, who was the same size. If I had lost that, that would have been terrible. I fought Lyoto. You know what I mean? F__k man, I thought I was going to win that fight. I still think I can go in and do good. I want to have better training partners. I don't want to make any excuses. If I ever fight him again I want to have better training partners. People like Chuck Liddell (pictures). People like that kind of people to train with if I fight Lyoto. And Renzo. If I lose, where is my career going? It's f__ked.

Gross: Renzo is 1-5 in his last six fights and hasn't been a player in that division in a long time. So why did you accept that fight?

Penn: I think it's all about filling up a 20,000-seat arena, you know what I mean. I think that's what K-1 wants to do and what they want to try to put together to fill up a 20,000-seat arena. But besides that, it's a good fight. It's going to be an exciting fight. I mean, if you look at every single one of the people—you know, fighting in a show it's all about who's going to watch the thing—if you look at all the people in the UFC welterweight division, even I think the middleweight division, a lot more people know who Renzo is, especially worldwide, not just in the U.S. Because the UFC is just in the U.S. market. But this is going to be worldwide on television in 60 countries and stuff like that. I guess it was a no-brainer for them to try and put that together.

Gross: This is a mega-fight in Hawaii and this arena is huge. What's that like headlining a show in your home state, obviously in front of a pro-B.J. Penn crowd?

Penn: It's awesome. I like fighting over here. The day of the fight I can sleep all day. It's nothing new. It's not in my hometown, but on another island. Same state. So I just feel comfortable. It's the same air I breathe everyday. It's good. When I get in that ring, I like how Renzo stares people down, I'll be on the other side walking around looking at him. We're looking at each other. The hype and the energy and everything is building up. I'm going to feel it. I'm going to feel the hair on my body standup and look across the ring. It's going to be excitement. There's going to be electricity in between the two of us standing across the ring looking at each other. Renzo's a crazy guy to count out. He can fight good with a lot of people. I don't know how much he's been training in his last fights. I heard he just showed up the fights. He was teaching, doing business and this and that, not taking it serious though. He's a lot older. He's 38 years old. He's had a lot of time off. That's the best thing a lot of times. When you fight so often, you're so active you take a year off and you're just on it. You're ready to train. You're ready to fight. There's something missing in your life for that one year. So it's back. He's got a challenge like me to step up to fight and I'm sure he's going to come in hard, fighting hard.

Gross: If you don't stop him or submit him, will you be disappointed?

Penn: Who's the last person who did stop him or submit him? Sakuraba right? Oh, Henderson knocked him out. Of course I'm going to go full bore to stop him or submit him. But I'm not going to say I'm going to be disappointed in myself. As long as it's an exciting fight, you know what I mean. As long as fans can say, "I got my money's worth. This is what I paid for." As long as the fans go home happy, I'll go home happy.

Gross: There are still a lot of fans who wish you would stick with a division and clean it out and fight the best. Beating Gomi and beating Hughes you have a good argument that you already did that. But do you feel at all for the fans who really want to see you fight the best of the best, at least that's how they're perceived?

Penn: If they want to see me fight the best of the best, let me fight all the guys. I'll fight Hughes again in a second. We're trying to put a fight together with Jeremy Horn (pictures) at 185, so it's not like I'm trying to jump out of the weight class. Because I'm walking around at 185 right now. That's what I'm fighting at. And when I said I really want to test myself against someone like Wanderlei Silva (pictures) and people like that, I'm serious. I want to do those kind of things. I want to fight those kinds of people. I want to take it as far as I can take it, especially for myself too. I want to know how good I am. I don't want to sit back later and be like, "yeah man I was the best welterweight ever. Nobody in the whole world ever, ever could mess with me. No one could ever touch me." I want to see. I want to know my limit. I want to know how far I can take it. I want to know who I am. I want to face all these people. I want to look across the ring and look at them in the eyes and stare at them and see how it feels and feel all that emotion. I want to do it all.