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Gender: Male
Status: Single
Age: 41
Sign: Libra

City: PHOENIX
State: Arizona
Country: US
Signup Date: 3/26/2007
Friday, May 02, 2008 

Category: Religion and Philosophy

Someone recently asked about my view on the origin of human morality, so I am re-posting this old blog.


"In sixteenth-century Paris, a popular form of entertainment was cat-burning, in which a cat was hoisted in a sling on a stage and slowly lowered into a fire. According to historian Norman Davies, "[T]he spectators, including kings and queens, shrieked with laughter as the animals, howling with pain, were singed, roasted, and finally carbonized."  [Steven Pinker – "The History of Violence"]

The Nobler Savage

Morality is not an exact science.  The line between moral and immoral behavior is often hazy and curved, as illustrated by the utter lack of agreement among humans on many moral issues.  Why are we unsure of whether abortion is acceptable?  Why is embryonic stem cell research not a crystal clear issue?  We have no consensus on homosexuality or pre-marital sex.  Why are we not in universal agreement on all (some would ask ANY) moral questions?

The answer is simple: our sense of morality, like every other evolutionary trait, is a work in progress.  And it always will be.

But the good news is: it's improving.

Steven Pinker, Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University and former professor in the Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences at MIT, summarizes his lecture entitled "The History of Violence" with evidence that the morality of our behavior is evolving for the better, and that we are probably living in the most peaceful moment of our species' time on earth:

Conventional history has long shown that, in many ways, we have been getting kinder and gentler. Cruelty as entertainment, human sacrifice to indulge superstition, slavery as a labor-saving device, conquest as the mission statement of government, genocide as a means of acquiring real estate, torture and mutilation as routine punishment, the death penalty for misdemeanors and differences of opinion, assassination as the mechanism of political succession, rape as the spoils of war, pogroms as outlets for frustration, homicide as the major form of conflict resolution—all were unexceptionable features of life for most of human history. But, today, they are rare to nonexistent in the West, far less common elsewhere than they used to be, concealed when they do occur, and widely condemned when they are brought to light.

The idea that we are indeed living in the most peaceful age of human history may be hard to swallow if you watch the news.  But now that social scientists have started to count the bodies from different historical periods, they have discovered a somewhat unintuitive fact: we are becoming nobler.  The proportion of prehistoric skeletons with ax marks and embedded arrowheads, and the proportion of men in a contemporary foraging tribe who die at the hands of other men, suggest that pre-state societies were far more violent than our own.

"According to anthropologists like Lawrence Keeley, Stephen LeBlanc, Phillip Walker, and Bruce Knauft, these factors combine to yield population-wide rates of death in tribal warfare that dwarf those of modern times. If the wars of the twentieth century had killed the same proportion of the population that die in the wars of a typical tribal society, there would have been two billion deaths, not 100 million."  [Steven Pinker – "The History of Violence"]

Conventional history further demonstrates the fact that our sense of morality is not only increasing – it is widening beyond our species.  Today in the largely secular West, we have far more humane societies and animal shelters than cat-burning arenas.  (Geez – I hope we don't have ANY cat-burning arenas, but I don't want to assume.)  And our growing number of vegans, vegetarians and animal rights organizations is heartening during a time that the religious right is telling us that modernity has somehow corrupted the noble savage.

Unfortunately, human history has been rife with one huge obstacle that has constantly riddled the otherwise straightish line of moral progress with zigzags and spikes of horrible atrocities.  That obstacle, of course, is religion.

Bertrand Russell briefly explains "Why I am Not a Christian":

You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress of humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or ever mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.

Man has often invented gods who spoke for him, who confirmed all his opinions and prejudices.  Before the dawn of the Age of Reason in the early 17th century, our theretofore improving evolutionary sense of morality in the West had been regularly circumvented by the belief that gods wanted us to kill each other, and that they appreciated human and animal sacrifices.  Even today, we have gods who hate homosexuals and apostates.  In the East, we still see crusades between warring sects.

But once again, empathy and reason seem to be prevailing, as god stories are facing extinction.  And the few religions that remain in the western world have been forced by secular modernity to evolve to be more in line with human morality.  The age-old axiom holds true: religion improves as people believe it less.

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that [evolving morality] -- for lack of a better word -- is good.  [Evolving morality] is right.  [Evolving morality] works.  [Evolving morality] clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit."  {Michael Douglas – "Wall Street"}

Is it perfect?  Heck no. What is?  But it's the best we've got, and it's gotten us this far.  Our evolutionary spirit is based on random mutations – how perfectly on-target should we expect our moral aim to be?  If morals are based on evolution – both biological and cultural – our lack of timeless universal agreement on so many moral issues makes perfect sense, and our agreement increases over time.

God as the Source of Our Morality

But what would we expect if God gave us our sense of morality?  Wouldn't we expect the answers to all moral questions to be timeless and innately clear to us?  If God has specific rules of right and wrong for all our behaviors, and if our knowledge of those rules depends on an innate understanding implanted in us by God, and if our behavior is important enough to God that He may damn us for eternity for our actions, I think we should all expect a universal sense of right and wrong that could not be confused or improved.  There should be no place for reason, philosophy or evolution.  With free will, we would still have the ability to do the selfish/wrong thing, but we should never have any doubt of an action's inherent morality in any situation.  Otherwise, how unfair to judge us by our actions, much less our thoughts!

The Bible as the Source of Our Morality

And what about The Bible?  At best, The Bible is a perfect example of how our morals evolve.  Christians, how often have you had to excuse the atrocities of the Old Testament with "Well, that was a different time" or "That was before Jesus."?  There was clear evolution of morality between the writing and compiling of the Old Testament and of the New.  Even at the time the Christian Bible was compiled, slavery and subjugation of women were still culturally common, and they are both sanctioned in The New Testament.  But today, our two leading candidates for the next presidency of the most powerful nation on Earth are a woman and a black man!  I'd call that moral progress.  And I'd call it evolution.

At worst, The Bible's moral messages are extremely confusing.  When we consider the simple and undeniable fact that The Bible has been used to sanction – AND TO COMDEMN – just about every questionable action since its compilation, it seems quite clear that it is not a reliable – or even a coherent – guide to moral behavior.  Enough said.

 

Then what IS the source of our sense of morality?  The following historical narrative is my simple attempt at a model to answer that question.  (really boring)

The Origin of Morality in Social Species

Among Earth's earliest advanced life forms, we see the first signs of a genetic sense of empathy, as mothers with the genetic instinct to nurture their young were the only to survive and evolve.  In these primitive species, this form of empathy was directed exclusively toward immediate offspring, and no empathy was expressed toward mates or toward any other individuals.

But as competition for territory and food grew, survival depended on banding together in small groups.  Like today, the earliest primary tribal unit was likely the family of blood relatives, but blood relation was not imperative at that point.  A sense of cooperation and justice became intrinsic to family life as members were forced to defend territory and to fight for food together.  Thus, the genetic sense of empathy in individuals of successful families had to widen to cover each other.  In families with individuals with less empathetic genes, the more selfish individuals dominated, the selfish genes spread, cooperation and trust evolved away, soon followed by the family itself.  The vast majority of families fell into this category.  Conversely, the few families with individuals with the most empathetic genes nurtured and protected each other and shared food, thus ensuring their territorial dominance and survival advantage.

With time and inbreeding, a strong genetic sense of empathy necessarily became a common – though not necessarily a dominant – trait.  And within these genetically empathetic families, the first altruistic memes spread as family members passed cooperative habits of sharing and justice to each other and to their offspring.  Certainly, there were selfish traits within the families, and those selfish traits surely expressed themselves in selfish behavior – probably much more often than in altruistic behavior – but the underlying greater and widened sense of empathy and cooperation than in the competition was necessarily the single most important deciding survival factor.

This trend continued as tribes grew and wrestled with their competing and conflicting genes and memes; the most altruistic tribes with the strongest and widest genetic sense of empathy and cultural sense of cooperation were always the ones to survive and evolve; the rest died out.

 

This simple scenario is not only a plausible description of the genetic and cultural rise of morality in our tribal ancestors – it was naturally inevitable, as it was surely required for survival and evolution. We see this cooperative tendency continue throughout all social species today, from ant to human.  Occam would approve. 

The Evolution of Human Morality

But if empathy has become a strong trait in humans over many millions of years of evolution, why do people do rotten things?  When we ask that question, it shows that we really expect too much of evolution; evidence shows that we are improving, but perfection is impossible.  Many maladaptive traits – dyslexia, high blood pressure, selfishness, etc. – survive evolution in packets.  As long as strong advantageous genetic traits like empathy are enough to keep the tribe thriving, negative and neutral traits will be inevitable.  Maladaptive traits tend to evolve away through time, but there are always new negative mutations to figuratively replace the old.

And it's often more complicated than even that.  Moral issues are not always a simple matter of our selfish genes and memes battling with our empathetic genes and memes.  When new moral questions – embryonic stem cell research, for example – arise, there's not always a simple right/wrong answer.  This is where our philosophical sense of reason plays a part, and this is why morality is often such a struggle for us.  We have to weigh all the potential advantages and all the potential suffering that could be caused by a specific action, for ourselves and for those for whom we feel empathy.  (See early Greek philosophy for lessons on how to think, re-think and over-think the morality of our decisions and not come to any agreement.)

Our decisions become behaviors.  As we grow, we judge our own actions and those of others by that same combination of empathy and reason, and patterns gradually emerge.  The more clearly a specific behavior relates to our genetic sense of empathy, the more widely the rightness or wrongness of the behavior will spread memetically, and the more widely we will have agreement on its morality.

Our "moral imperatives" – specific actions that are almost universally considered to be absolutely good or absolutely bad in all situations – are the easiest for us to judge.  Murder and theft are good examples of universally forbidden moral imperative memes that have likely been with us for millions of years.  Rape and adultery, forbidden moral imperatives that have arisen with the evolution of cultural memes like romance and the committed relationship, are much newer memes.  (In other species – and surely in our ancestors – romance and committed relationships are rare or non-existent, so rape and adultery are non-issues; in fact, they favor survivability and have for hundreds of millions of years!)

For every other issue, it's a slow process as we reason through our decisions and judge the results of our actions.  Many philosophical issues – like intent versus result, for example – are not settled to our universal satisfaction even today, but like every other aspect of our morality, they are evolving toward universal agreement.

The Future of Human Morality

What's next in our moral evolution?  I suspect that the way we treat many animals will change.  In particular, I think that the way we raise chickens and veal calves will be among the first to evolve into something more humane as our sense of empathy widens to include animals that taste good to us but are not traditionally kept as pets.  Eventually, I suspect that we may stop eating other animals altogether.

I think that we will continue to be more tolerant of different races, of different sexual orientations and of different beliefs.  And I suspect that we will abandon divisive mythology.  (Daniel Dennett proposed that within 25 years, the Vatican may be known as the European Museum of Roman Catholicism and Mecca could become Disney's Magical Kingdom of Allah!)

Conclusion:

Our ever-improving but always imperfect sense of morality is exactly what we would expect if it is a natural, evolving genetic/memetic trait – a product of empathy and reason.  But is far from what we would expect if planted in us by God.  And finally, our current sense of morality has surpassed that demonstrated by The Bible, which perfectly exemplifies the less evolved sense of morality of its time and place.

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Richie MacCool
Richard Stewart

 
Put together very well E2O!
Be back later.
 
Posted by Richie MacCool on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 9:56 PM
[Reply to this
Gabriel's CONTROVERSIAL OPTIMUS BLOGUM

 
typical atheist arrogant response and dribble:

"you don't understand evolution"

"you don't know the concepts"

"you're not educated in the science of it, to say anything"

"you're ignorant, and don't know what you're talking about, if you say evolution is just a theory or a hoax"

YAWN !!!!!!!

You love to ASSume dumb crap, babe. As I said:

Am I an "expert" expert? No. But I've read thousands of pages of this crap, on and off, for years. And delved into it, more than the average idiot walking down the street.

I understand more than you closed-mindedly rudely idiotically think.

That's the usual tired gas that arrogant closed-minded evolutionists and atheists keep throwing and farting out, to people who don't buy evolution or who say things like the human eye is too complex for chance evolution, etc. And it's SILLY. Cuz, answer this, again:

All those PhD's, and Creation Scientists, and Biologists, etc, who are experts in this field for years, and have studied and worked on the subject, for years, and science is what they do, would you say that THEY "don't understand what the theory of evolution is"???


And it's laughable that you say that their stuff has been "debunked" yet is still believed, cuz you know much of the horse crap has been debunked that deranged evolutionists have spewed out over the decades, based on speculation and cockeyed guesswork, that later turned out to be total garbage, where evolutionists STILL use it anyway??

some of that stuff is coming in later blogs. Peppered moths? or "acquired characteristic" and "slips in heredity". Total nonsense.

Again though, I know that some "fundies" and "Funny Mentalists" have SOME distorted views in their Creation Science, and views. But even with them, the basics are sound, in that, as an example, the "Cambrian" period reveals SUDDEN APPEARING and "explosion" with ZERO transitional phases. And the whole point of true bio-genesis, instead of mythical "abiogenesis."

And your same old tired line (of arrogant evolutionists) of "you just don't understand the concepts" simply cuz I come up with different conclusions than you is insane and schmucky.

Cuz will you say that these PhDs and Creationist Biologists, etc, "don't understand the theory of evolution" either?? Though they're professional scientists and physicists?? And have studied this crap like 100 times more than you or I have??

The arrogance and presumptuousness of uptight evolutionists knows no end. I do understand the basic (and even the finer points) of organic evolution. I've studied it for YEARS, kid. And what the whole premise is about, and the speculations and assertions.

I just don't believe in astronomical myths and postulations that are not proven or verified. I'm funny that way.

You just diss and dismiss and assume dumb crap.

TYPICAL !!!!

You don't know anything about me really. You just knee-jerkly hastily schmuckishly judge me cuz I don't believe in the astronomical myth of chance evolution.

Funny and convenient for you to side step my example questions of "first cell from lifeless chemicals" and say that the question is "stupid." An non-response response. And lovely dodge.

real sweet, kid.

I was not so "hurt" by your rude retarded crap, babe. I just was putting the matter straight, that you're an uptight little rude arrogant twit. Who doesn't like to be challenged, and doesn't like open discussion. But would rather name-call and disrespect. No one's perfect, but you got issues.

Analyze it honestly. This Evolution Doctrine is like a CRUSADE with you. You went nuts on this blog, with all those kooky cartoons. It's is a neurotic OBSSESSION with you. You're on a silly demented SOAP-BOX with this issue. Your blog is PSYCHOTIC. Interesting, no doubt, and thought-provoking, and worth looking into. But it also wreaks of pathology all over the place. PASSION has turned into PERENNIAL PARANOIA. And a sick arrogance.

So I don't know anything about "evolution" huh? And you know this based on what exactly? Cuz I have trouble believing it??

Anyway, continue to uh hum go "relax" (while being rude and silly and neurotic about all this in the process).

Sorry for the long comment, but it is what it is

Again, I just have a hard time whole-heartedly believing in astronomical myths and postulations that are not proven or verified or really scientifically confirmed, any place at any time. I'm strange that way.
 
Posted by Gabriel's CONTROVERSIAL OPTIMUS BLOGUM on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 5:58 AM
[Reply to this
Richie MacCool
Richard Stewart

 
What is the over/under as to whether or not our "Terrorist" friends show up on this blog?
 
Posted by Richie MacCool on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:19 PM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Hmmm...

What sort of line do you think it would take to keep both of them from showing up?

I'm putting the line at 1 and taking bets based on that. It pays 21/11 if you're interested. All bets refunded on a 1 and paid back 10/11 lol. Or maybe I should set it at 1.5 to avoid refunds.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:43 PM
[Reply to this
eminy
Emily Kerr

 
Hi enlightenment!

I recently was involved in a lengthy argument with a theist about morality, so I was very excited to read this!
Great blog!

:)
 
Posted by eminy on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 1:44 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Thanks eminy :)

I hope my model makes sense and seems realistic and logical enough to everybody.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 2:23 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"I could just ask to start out: would it we "wrong" if I kidnapped children, raped them, tortured them and killed them? "

If you were not religious to begin with, and under the ludicrous assumption that to be good one must be following the rules of a dictator then asking this question would be a non-sequitur. What do you call wrong? Obviously you have a differing definition of "wrong" to me, otherwise you wouldn't ask such a perverse question.

I heard a story on the radio the other day about an islamic man who bought a gun to Mosque in order to kill a rival. When caught by the Cleric presiding, and being told that it is against the Koran to murder, the pious idiot replied "I didn't know, I'm most sorry". The point of the story is that without religion we rely on our intuitions and instincts, and the law of the land to control our actions. It's actually religion that allows us to bypass these.

The presence of the rule book actually undermines the rightness, or wrongness of an action.
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 2:49 AM
[Reply to this
erik (eccles) hunt

 
"But if I could just ask to start out: would it we "wrong" if I kidnapped children, raped them, tortured them and killed them?" i dont understand what u were getting at with that comment. im pretty sure that not only would your "god-man" but also humanity itself would piss on your grave after u would receive the death penalty. does that answer your question? i have no idea if i just did or not.
 
Posted by erik (eccles) hunt on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 2:32 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"So in other words, are you saying that these acts are wrong?"

Yes.

You seem to be saying that human imperatives are not absolute or relative. Last I checked injuries cause pain, this is not relative, you cannot choose whether one will feel pain or not. So saying that this is wrong is also not relative, do you understand? You seem to be arguing with a feature of language... the inference to imperative from experience.

We live in a society under a social contract based on the Veil of Ignorance or Confucious' "do not unto others as you would not have done unto you" (400BC). The idea that we agree to give up Liberties (for instance, the Liberty to Murder) in order to gain rights (for instance, the Right not to be murdered).

Do you understand how this works?
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:00 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"You seem to be saying that human imperatives are not absolute or relative"

Sorry, I meant "not absolute or are relative"
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:01 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"If there is no standard and therefore no right or wrong (good or evil) then all is relative"

No matter how many times I predict what you religious people are going to say, and explain ahead of time, you still go and say exactly what I said you would say. Doesn't this make you feel stupid?

"There should be no obligation to try and benefit society"

There doesn't need to be. We as humans don't like pain, and a destructive society leads to a lot of pain. We know this an those around us know this. If Chaos benefited us all then we would all buy into a chaotic social contract, as it happens it doesn't, so we don't.
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:16 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
How about other moral issues that have nothing to do with pain? How about the pleasure of the rapist?

What about the pleasure of the Rapist?
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:40 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
The simple fact is: "everything is relative" is a superior guideline than the conflicting guidelines the bible offers. A relative sense of right and wrong has caused our sense of morality to improve as our species has matured. It caused the New Testament writers to write with a better sense of right and wrong than the Old Testament writers. "Everything is relative" is not perfect, but it's all we've got, if it's based on the golden rule.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:14 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"Who set the golden rule?"

Confucious 400BC
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:41 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Ok, now we're going off on a tangent, but...

All the prophecies in "The Phantom Menace" were fulfilled by "Return of the Jedi."
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:36 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Jonathan,

I'm limited on time tonight, so I have to apologize in advance for maybe not properly holding up my end of the conversation tonight....

I think the golden rule is perhaps humanity's greatest achievement so far. With that in mind, I think all those actions you described would be "wrong."

Side note: all those actions are sanctioned and recommended in the bible - as long as the victims are outside the chosen tribe.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 2:31 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Numbers 31:17-18
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Same type of thing from Moses in Deut 20:

Psalm 137:9
"Blessed shall be he who taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

I think that covers kidnapping, rape and murder of children.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:03 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
By the golden rule, the actions that you mentioned are wrong. I noted that those actions are sanctioned and recommended in the bible. This comment showed some examples.

But I left out torture. Whoops.

Proverbs 23:13-14

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:21 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
The golden rule is "Treat others as you would have them treat you."

I don't know who set it. That rule has been incorporated into many religions, a few of which were around before the biblical god supposedly created the universe.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:30 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Well, now you're just being silly. I don't know who FIRST came up with the golden rule because it has been around in written form for at least 7,000 years, and it likely existed in spoken form way earlier.

I'd hardly call the golden rule arbitrary. It must have been originally based on our evolutionary sense of empathy, and our evolving sense of morality continues to re-confirm it generation after generation. I don't recall ever meeting a believer or non-believer who didn't like it.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:41 AM
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Wait. I posted that last comment before reading your whole comment.

Are you saying that you endorse beating children with rods?

And we're not going off on tangents. I am responding directly to everything you are saying and asking.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:32 AM
[Reply to this
Hugh

 
Humans are not the only species with morals, or more accurately, cooperative behaviors. Richard Dawkins has an evolutionary perspective of morality that is eloquently laid out in his book The Selfish Gene. I wrote about it in my December 16, 2007 blog called "Morally Speaking". Check out the links there, as well as the comments, if you are interested in understanding morality.
 
Posted by Hugh on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 2:47 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"if you believe that humans are not the only species with morals then doesn't this (obviously) assume that we have morals and therefore some kind of moral standard?"

Yes. Much like we have many other laws that don't require a designer, The Law of Entropy, The Law of Diminishing Returns, The Law of Averages, The Laws of Celestial Mechanics, The Law of Gravity, The Theory of Relativity... there might likely to be an ideal (survival-wise) Law of morality.

Not only does this not require a designer it also affirms that we cannot, as yet define exactly what this moral law is, and must be open minded to possibilities. We should mistrust anyone who claims to have an infallible moral compass without sufficient evidence...

like the religious
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:10 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"How can we have laws without a law-giver?"

What are we, in the 14th Century?

Well I did state the Law of Diminishing Returns right? Did God design this? No, this a law that states that at a certain point an increase in production will yield diminishing profits. This is an observation about market economics, it comes about independently, it then takes an intelligent person to define the law. No one had to write the law, the law was "given" by market forces.

I really can't believe you guys even ask this question anymore.

"If you are saying that a moral standard does exist yet we can't know it as of yet, then how are we to live before we find it?"

This is a good question, and one every human on earth must struggle with. But just like in physics or biology we can measure our progress, We know that some of Newton's Laws are flawed, but are still better than what came before, and are approximately correct for most calculations. Morality is similar, there are certain measures that can be made of a society's moral success, and you see them in infant mortality, literacy rates etc.
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:32 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"This still does not answer the question as to how we are to live until we find it."

Exactly, it's a question, not an answer.

"But really, what do you expect to find and how will we find it?"

Something that is a synthesis of a number of different ethic frameworks. Basically a Utilitarian framework, because you can't actually disprove the utility of Utilitarianism without using a utilitarian argument, therefore any argument made against Utilitarianism is self defeating.

It's really about defining the word.
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:51 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Jonathan,

Do not confuse the word "law" as used by scientists and the word "law" as used by the police.

The laws of people require a lawgiver. The laws of the universe simply require a universe. "Law" does not imply that the universe is bound by written rules; laws of nature are simply our observations of the way in which the universe behaves.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:28 AM
[Reply to this
James Brown
James Brown

 
"How are we able to make deductions about what we observe"

From repeated observation. For example, we see the sun rise and set 3 times in a row, we infer that the same thing will happen tomorrow. Can you imagine a law-giver writing all these rules???

Day starts then finishes again, then exactly the same the next day, then exactly the next day....
Breathing goes in, out, in, out, then repeat...
Heartbeat goes boom-boom, boom-boom ad infinitum...
The Law of Diminishing Returns means that hypothetically if a race of animals were to develop a system of economics then at a certain point an increase in production would not be matched by an increase in profits...
The Law of Hephalumps, would state, if the fictional character of a Hephalump were to inhabit the earth they would live relative to a Christopher Robin...

How tedious,

Laws are defined from observation. When humans find a pattern or regular occurrence they use the word "Law" to define the simplest method of describing that pattern or regular occurrence.

As has been said this relates only to the legal term "law" metaphorically.
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 4:05 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Again, scientific laws are based on observation. A physicist's job is not to determine the origin of the laws; a physicist's job is to record the observations and to make predictions - forward and backward - based on those observations.

"Laws" are simply based on the observations.

The laws of the universe as we know them came about from the force of the big bang. What caused the big bang? There is no scientific theory, because our observations can only project back to the big bang. Beyond that, there is only guessing and story-telling.

Now, I can say "Billy Bob did it." But that accomplishes nothing, because I gave no details of how Billy Bob did what he did, and I can replace "Billy Bob" with an infinite number of names and none will be more or less probable.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:48 AM
[Reply to this
ÇOSTAIRE
Travis Costa

 
Another fine article my friend. Excellent Conclusion, couldn't have said it better myself, different maybe, but not better lol.

-T
 
Posted by ÇOSTAIRE on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:26 AM
[Reply to this
Enlightenment 2.0

 
Thanks Crash!

It's an old one.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:33 AM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
Can I just request that no one use words like "stupid" or "moron" to describe each other. Insulting each other won't likely accomplish much, and I have not seen anyone here who deserves to be insulted....YET.

Now if Astrochronic or Brian J Christ show up, by all means, let 'em have it.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:51 AM
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James Brown
James Brown

 
"Can I just request that no one use words like "stupid""

I agree, in my defense I did not actually call anyone stupid, I asked if asking a question in light of it already being answered made them feel stupid. It wasn't so much an insult as an accurate description of an action (not a person).
 
Posted by James Brown on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 3:55 AM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
Cool. I didn't mention anyone specifically. I just don't want this blog to end up looking like all those other blogs filled with "You moron! How can you not understand how right I am and how wrong you are????"

We always reach people much more effectively when no one is insulting them in between our comments :)
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 9:18 PM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
Let's start a new tree here.

Jonathan asked if it was possible that the golden rule had a non-human origin.

Well, it's possible, but extremely unlikely. If some non-human entity had the wherewithal to implant the golden rule in our brains, or to whisper it to a few humans, it seems probable that that entity would have done much more. But the golden rule fits perfectly with my model of the evolutionary development of morality in this blog.

It's POSSIBLE that the wind is ultimately caused by Zeus. It's POSSIBLE that gravity is ultimately caused by The Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't see any advantage to entertaining the possibilities until Zeus or The FSM presents himself to us.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 4:07 AM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
Well anyway Jonathan,

I hope I answered all your questions adequately. I was hoping you'd finish the conversation, but I was away all afternoon and evening; I guess you were as well.

I think my model and this blog stand up well. I think the golden rule was devised by a simple but wise human. And I think our human sense of morality has evolved. Good talkin' to ya, and I hope we can continue some time.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 5:08 AM
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I HAVE NOT READ THIS YET, AND I CAN'T TONIGHT BECAUSE I HAVE TO WORK TOMORROW, BUT I'M GLAD TO SEE YOUR BACK! HAVE FUN. I'LL STOP OVER AFTER WORK TOMORROW TO READ WHAT YOU WROTE! JEANNA : )
 
Posted by on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 5:44 AM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
This is nothing new. It's the same old blog I wrote a long time ago in response to a few other blogs I had read recently. I kept promising people I would write a blog about morality, and people kept asking me "When are you gonna write that morality blog?" So I wrote this one and I called it "The Morality Blog" the first time.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 5:47 AM
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OK. I BRIEFED IT. SO ........ TELL THEM ABOUT THE CHICKEN.................................

JEANNA : )
 
Posted by on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 5:50 AM
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Sharon
Sharon Pribble

 
I agree. And if we were to survive as a species, let alone a culture; we had to get along.
To get along, we had to learn what was best for us to help improve our survival chances.
Cruelty does not improve those chances. Nor does it improve our understanding of ourselves or others.
Thus, we had to weed out things that hurt us, and other creatures.

In time, we added other bases, like not subjugating others.

As we learn, we improve our chances.
 
Posted by Sharon on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 2:57 PM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
Thanks Sharon,

Hopefully we'll add many more bases.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 9:22 PM
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Sharon
Sharon Pribble

 
I really like your posts. Don't often find straightforward discussions of this subject without prejudices like we do here.

Thanks.
 
Posted by Sharon on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 6:01 PM
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Moral labels.............

I had a lady at work ask me if I was a Christian. (WHAT?) When I asked her why she would ask me that, she said "you are always so nice and helpful".

I remember driving home from work that day thinking, I need to be a Christian to be a nice, helpful, awesome person!

I guess the moral to her conclusion was that to be a good/awesome person you need to be a
Christian.
 
Posted by on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 4:03 PM
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Richie MacCool
Richard Stewart

 
This is an excellent point Gina! Many of us have similar story's to that. The problem is that people who are raised in church/religion are often told that they need to follow certain rules in order to please god or that god made rules that we need to follow and to depart from these rules would bring consequences. So the people in here who believe that morality comes from god simply can't imagine that people will do what is right all on their own. And yet prisons are full of "Christians" who made bad decisions. Morality is relative and it always has been. To say that it isn't is to admit ones ignorance of history and all cultures past and present. They can only see the morality debate from one angle: their own.
 
Posted by Richie MacCool on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 5:16 PM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
It's funny, but I tend to be guilty of this same sort of thing - I often think to myself "This guy's way too smart to be Christian. That's somewhat similar to "This guy's way too moral to be atheist."
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 9:10 PM
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ashley

 
the only time when 'moral' and 'immoral' lines are blurry is in a permissive society. if you go to some place, like say saudi arabia you won't have the issues of abortion/etc being a moral discussion.

in a society of diverse peoples, from all sorts of backgrounds, it seems silly to assume there would be a consensus on anything - especially given that the US is a permissive society. i definitely reject the claim that morality is a work in progress. that seems counter-intuitive, like assuming peace will come...in time, even through fighting. morality is the structure, not the goal. it is the pattern of thinking that governs the logos of people. everyone has a sense of morality, though some may not attribute it to religion. ancient greeks attributed the moral thing as the logical and rational, as something that results in good thoughts, good actions, etc. morality can't 'get better' or evolve, it simply is. the good or the moral thing is the form, versus the reality.

i also find it hard to swallow the fact that we are 'more peaceful'. that is an arbitrary term. after all, compared to the number of deaths? if that is the case, then there is a huge flaw - what of medicines, natural age spans, etc? there are way too many things that aren't taken into account.

memetic thinking is highly debatable - after all, its basically saying there is a super culture and 'best' idea out there. that discounts force and power used on people. this also doesn't take into account 'failed states' as well. is the inevitable going to be where there is one giant empire where the other cultures are submitted? where's the 'end' of the memetic trend? as a proponent of game theory, i don't see the dualism of meme to be useful.

i just find the entire theory fatally flawed. why would some families being 'nicer' or more 'empathetic' than others? what is the basis for such a characterization, and how can we know?
also, selfishness is not a maladaptive trait... after all, if it were not for those who went and achieved their needs then they would die. so, selfishness is simply another arbitrary term - the selfish man could be the ultimate self-less man, just depending on how you view him.

it seems the only reason embryonic stem cell research is even considered a moral question is due to political party play.

& finally, the last bit about mecca becoming a disneyland makes me nauseous. if that is evolution, then we will surely reach the end of history (as per fukuyama). to echo burke, i would say that some prejudice in society is good. prejudice says something is good or bad, or right or wrong. tolerance of all leads to the destruction of all. the day i tolerate a pedophile as a sexual preference is the day that society crumbles.
 
Posted by ashley on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 8:51 AM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
Ashley, I'll cover each of your 7 paragraphs with one paragraph of my own.

1. "Permissive" is obviously relative, and changes with time and place. If we don't stone our children to death for disobedience, then some could label us "permissive." If we don't torture and kill non-believers, some could label us permissive.

2. You noted that in some places like Saudi Arabia, you won't have some of these issues, and of course some actions that go on regularly in Saudi Arabia would be considered deplorable to us in the modern West. True - we do discuss things like abortion and euthanasia here in the US, but we don't make our women wear veils if they leave the home. Western cultures used to view women as lower-class humans as well. During the height of Christianity's strength, we used to torture and kill non-believers. Now we have freedom of religion and equal rights. Evolution.

3. Re-read the section on the fact that we are more peaceful today than at any other time. It has nothing to do with total deaths. It has to do with percentages of deaths that involved violence.

4. I don't think memetic thinking has anything at all to do with the "super culture" or "best idea" out there - quite the opposite. Religious people often believe they have the "best" sense of right and wrong, because the religious believe that their rules were dictated by something greater than human. The principle behind memetic moral evolution is that there is no ultimate goal; we hopefully never stop improving. If there was an agreed-on "best," then there would be no need for philosophical ethics. I'm not sure you understand what "meme" means. An example of memetic evolution: 200 years ago the founding fathers of the US wanted freedom of religion for everybody - this was a good thing. They also kept slaves and wouldn't let women vote - bad thing. Today, we cringe at the idea of slavery, and we can't even imagine not letting women vote. These would have been fringe ideas 200 years ago, but today they're commonplace. The ideas of equality among races and sexes are memes.

5. Re-read my model. I think it makes sense.

6. The embryonic stem cell issue is only political? You'll have to explain that. I believe it's only a religious issue; some people believe that the human soul enters the human body at conception, and therefore embryonic stem cell research erases a soul.

I'll split my response to your last paragraph into 2.

7a. The idea of Mecca becoming Disney's Magical Kingdom of Allah has some historical precedent. Many Anglican churches in England have been transformed into museums. The idea of a Disney theme is simply based on that precedent, combined with the Mecca architecture, which has undoubtedly influenced Disney's architecture already.

7b. I'll just let the rest of your last paragraph speak for itself.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 1:58 PM
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ashley

 
permissive is not relative if you say that it means freedoms and liberties.

so am i to assume you think that only christianity is evolving now? if saudi women are wearing the veil it is due to the culture and a necessary understanding of morality. my point was that morality can be understood and there are not always 'blurred' areas between immoral and moral. the issue of stem cell research is completely political. after all, how do constituents know an issue and have a sense of them - through parties. the parties create issues in order to shift the voters in their favor. its a very basic part of the political system. you assuming that SCR is religious shows that you live in a society where it was made into a political issue, and as a result a religious one.

even if it regarded the percentages of deaths involving violence, that disregards history as cyclical. if we are entering an era where less deaths are a result of violence, can't it be a function of the nation-state having a monopoly on force, and not something like morality evolving? less deaths doesn't mean people are more morally 'better' - its not a causal link at all and doesn't really correlate either.

i understand meme enough, but i don't think it is a proper science - perhaps a protoscience, if not a pseudoscience and that is because meme would basically state that a belief is a virus. consumption is a virus, and arbitrary and shifting needs are. 'the good' is not. it doesn't change, it is constant and unwavering. it is. it is not able to be anything but the form of itself.

my point with the 'super culture' is that it is the logical end to an ever evolving/'getting better' society. but memes can't explain devolution of culture. also, it is basically science saying that any beliefs outside of sceicne are not desirable (or even true). so if science proves it, then it is.

the model doesn't make sense to me. this concept exists as almost a response to capitalism, and as i stated some fukuyama-like thinking. we are 'evolving' in retrospect because we (the people stating it) a) don't think religion is rational, b) assume that rational thinking is science, and c) assume evolution is a concept that can be applied to culture, because now culture is not rational unless it is linked to biology.

so because people have prejudices and peculiar tastes, they are somehow 'unadvanced' and not 'evolved'. what of the great philosopher and thinkers, etc?

yet again, you thinking that mecca becoming disneyland will happen shows the problem of using science to make generalizations about culture.

culture is best understood through game theoretical models, and not memetics. and it is because culture involves rewards, gains, and incentives; it involves collusion and overtness; it involves outcomes. without understanding the political rules of the game, as well as the economic situation, the cultural dynamics are useless. why? because the fittest do not necessarily survive, and the 'best' ideas do not always survive - sometimes the 'worst' ones do.
 
Posted by ashley on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 8:23 PM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
1. Our sense of "permissive" evolves as our sense of morality evolves. A thousand years from now, people may look back at us and be shocked that we ate other animals. A thousand years from now, people may be shocked that we had some people who made so much more money than other people. Similarly, we look back at slave-owners and we are shocked. It all evolves.

I'll split your 2nd paragraph into 3.

2a. Absolutely not, I do not think only Christianity is evolving. If my theory is correct, the sense of morality in the world of Islam will evolve to where Christianity's sense of morality is today, in less than 700 years. Islam is about 700 years younger, but outside influence should quicken the change.

2b. Saudi women may wear the veil for cultural reasons, but it surely didn't start as a cultural custom. (I read your most recent blog, and I'll mention it briefly here) And I wonder how much of the custom arose from the desire to protect women for women's sake, and how much of the custom arose to protect men's "property" from other men.

2c. You may be right on stem cell research. I have not heard a non-religious political reason for arguing against it, but I may just be missing something, as I'm not particularly political. What exactly is the issue if not religious, and how is it being used? I'd be open to changing my view on this, because I think it's important.

3. Like I said in my blog, my theory is that our sense of morality is partly genetic and partly cultural. If it wasn't improving, we'd likely look back at the past and think "Wow, we used to be so peaceful and tolerant, and now we all have slaves, etc." Our laws are part of our culture, so the evolution of our laws falls right in with my theory. Your question about the nation-state and force monopoly could hold some water, but the fact is that the least tyrannical and least dogmatic nations on Earth are also the most morally advanced. Check out the Human Development Index. Of the top 30 nations in the index, the US is probably the closest to a tyrannical or terrorist state, and I believe we place 8.

4. Memes can be good or bad. Religious beliefs are memes and interest in death metal is a meme.

5. Again, I disagree. Natural evolution has no end or goal, genetic or memetic. Evolution with a goal would be breeding, which we often do with many animals, and which the Nazis tried with people. I don't think a scientist has ever said that any belief outside science is undesirable; they simply don't deal with beliefs outside science, because they're scientists. Poets don't conduct lab experiments and scientists don't sing hymns. I'm not sure what your point was there. A scientist can love classical music or modern art or beatnik poetry, and a scientist can believe in a god. But none of that has much to do with what they do for a living.

6. I disagree. Religion could theoretically be rational, if its claims were substantiated somehow. If there was some reason to think that a god actually existed and wanted something from us, it would make perfect sense to do something about it, like try to follow its rules and make it happy. For example, if something magic happened...like a dead person arose from the grave, or a severed human limb spontaneously grew back, then it would make sense to believe in the supernatural. But in a world where nothing supernatural ever happens, it seems like a gargantuan leap of faith to base a life on the belief that the supernatural does exist, but just doesn't interact with the natural world in any way. It's an even bigger leap of faith to believe that a specific supernatural being exists. It's an even bigger leap of faith to believe that that supernatural being cares about us or what we do, based on stories of that being written by people millennia ago.

7. I'm not sure what you're referring to there.

8. The Mecca/Disney thing: Dan Dennett used that as an example of the extreme. He was asking where religion was headed in the near future, and I asked the same question and used the same example. I am not predicted that. I am saying that it is a possibility.

9. Yes, culture involves rewards, gains, incentives, collusion, overtness, etc., all of which are memes. These gains evolve culturally (memetically.) Indeed, sometimes the worst ideas survive; sometimes force wins over logic. How often has a nation adopted a new religious belief because its leaders carefully studied all the competing holy texts, examined all the claims of all the different religions, cross-checked everything with non-religious historical documentation, and found one religion to be based on truth while all the others were based on fiction? Obviously, never. Religions spread by conquest, enslavement, torture and missionary work. Not a very good system for arriving at the best idea.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 10:16 PM
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Enlightenment 2.0

 
If the fundamental disagreement between us here is that my sense that our morality is improving is based on my own current subjective sense of right and wrong, I can't say you're necessarily wrong there. But I think that our sense of right and wrong is progressing toward the golden rule.
 
Posted by Enlightenment 2.0 on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 10:30 PM
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Michael Musson
Michael Musson

 
brilliant words my friend, brilliant words....KUDOS
 
Posted by Michael Musson on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 6:45 PM
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