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Gender: Male
Status: Single
Age: 26
Sign: Capricorn

Country: UK
Signup Date: 6/4/2007
Monday, June 02, 2008 

We recently had an anonymous submission to our blog, and it summed up some awful practices so well we wanted to share it with more people. Bands, get together and stop lining the pockets of 'promoters' who won't do anything for you. Take Buffalo Bill's advice and avoid pay to play. Promoters should promote. Thats their job just as yours is to play music.

"Manchester has long since taken the mantle away from Birmingham as England's second-city in all but name alone with its abundance of sporting successes, the movement of major business and industry to the city and of course it's legendary musical history. Joy Division? The Smiths? The Happy Mondays? The Stones Roses? Oasis? All these hugely influential and successful bands call the State of Mancunia their home, so why is it that a city so steeped in musical tradition has one of the shoddiest local music scenes in the country? Let me tell you...

Everyone is in a band. Or so it seems. The large student population is obviously a fertile breeding ground for aspiring musicians to meet like minded folk and start a new project. Combine this with the fact many people move to Manchester specifically to join a band or to get their current group more exposure and you get a saturated market. Now there's nothing wrong with having hundreds of bands to choose from; variety is the spice of life and creativity should be encouraged. However, and this is where the real problem lies, there is simply no quality control. I'm not saying that there is a dearth in great bands out there; this couldn't be further from the truth. They are just hidden away beneath the pile of Oasis and Libertines clones that bore the pants off most gig-goers with their tiresome aping of said bands.

Any Tom, Dick & Harry can strap on their instruments, throw together a few chords then call any one of a number of promoters in the area to ask for a gig. The promoters who actually do what their title suggests will usually ask for a demo and some information about the band (e.g.. how long they've been together, where else they have played, what their aims are) before carrying out some background research and making a decision. Typically, if the demo shows promise and the promoter thinks he can sell them, they'll be booked for a gig and then will see what happens. If they feel the band isn't upto scratch then they'll politely decline and suggest that a bit more time is spent in the rehearsal room before taking to the stage. A good promoter will get adverts placed in the local press (which is usually free) and perhaps even on local radio. They will also promote upcoming shows at venues around town and will most certainly have an internet presence. If the event goes well the band may even get a slice of the door profits, but in any scenario the artist will at least be given a couple of guestlist passes and some free drinks for their efforts. You see, a good promoter will be able to pick a good band and promote an evening of entertainment that will have the punters coming in... I.e. Quality Control. A snowball effect will then occur, with gig-goers realising that this promoter is putting on consistently good shows week after week and so they come back and bring their friends until the promoter has to hire out a bigger venue to appease demand.

Now counter this with the numerous sharks masquerading as promoters. These people are the ones whose first question to a band looking to get a gig will be "How many people can you bring down?". If this happens to your band then HANG UP IMMEDIATELY! They are not bothered about you, your music or the fans; they are only care about how much filthy lucre you can make for them. If you say you can guarantee 25 plus people down then you will be offered a slot immediately and be forced to agree to sell X amount of tickets at around £5-£6 each with any below that number having to be paid for by the band. This instantly guarantees the 'promoter' a profit and so all they have to do is hire the venue then sit on their backsides whilst watching the money roll in as the bands market themselves over MySpace & Facebook and to all their friends & family... essentially doing all the promotion work themselves. You won't see the 'promoter' advertising the event in any local listings, there'll be no internet exposure, no posters around town, no flyers being handed out at other gigs and definitely no radio - that would require real effort! It's these promoters that fill venues up around the city with bands that clearly aren't ready to be there, thus putting music fans off unsigned nights because they know that the quality is likely to be decidedly ropey, and even if one of the four bands on show is any good, paying the price of a CD to watch them and over £3 for a drink doesn't represent value for money in the grand scheme of things.

So what can be done about this? It's simple really, and it's already being done by a few folks in Manchester who take pride in selecting bands that they like to play their shows rather than those who can quickly bring in a given amount of people because it's their first gig. These people take pride in their events and choose bands as an investment, as a good performance will bring back fans in their droves, meaning next time the promoter puts them on they are likely to see more people through the doors.

I like to give credit where credit is due, so here are a few nights that I've enjoyed recently;

Buff Bang Pow! - A quality evening all-round. Tickets are cheaper than most nights in Manchester (about £2 for advance guestlist or £3-£4 on the door) and are occasionally free! They sometimes offer drinks specials which are always a bonus, as everyone enjoys a few pints to accompany the music, with DJs sometimes booked for after the live music ends. Run by the lovable Buff girls, these nights are well worth getting down to.

Designer Magazine - A real leader in Manchester that is run by a thoroughly nice chap who lives and breathes the local music scene and does things in the right manner. They were recently involved with the excellent Northern Quarter MAPS Festival and you couldn't walk around the city centre without seeing fly posters on walls or brochures in bars. There were also features in the M.E.N., Xfm, and even on BBC Radio 1. That's what I call promotion!

Fiction-Non-Fiction - Lauded on the unsigned scene as having perhaps the best unsigned bands performing week after week, FNF is all about the music and having a good time. They FNF boys have even organised bands from overseas to play their nights, and are putting on Saturday evening shows over the summer in addition to their traditional Tuesday slots at the hip Tiger Lounge.

Of course this isn't an exclusive list, just some of the promoters that I can assure the reader will put on top-quality events. Manchester has worked hard to gain a reputation as being the hub of new music in the UK, so it would be a shame for this to be ruined by a few people who are in it for the money. With bands like the Ting Tings and the Courteeners topping the charts and proudly declaring their love of Manchester, the industry focus will be shifting up from London once again as record companies migrate north looking for the next big thing. How long that focus remains here will depend greatly on the quality control that is put into place throughout the city's venues...


Buffalo Bill


For more thoughts on the subject of bad promotion and pay to play visit www.music-dash.co.uk/forums . Leave your comments and stories there, or in our comments section below.

Human Resources

 
I always find it interesting when promoters who primarily book punk rock bands act as you've described: that's surely the least egalitarian, lefty, punk rock thing ever isn't it? Not from my own experience, but hey.

Good blog post, good forward thinking.
 
Posted by Human Resources on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 7:50 PM
[Reply to this
Death In Public (Are DEAD)

 
TOOOOOTTTTALLLLLYYYY
AGREE with this 100000%
And I can see a certain large Manchester based 'promotions' company who I wont name, have sparked this! :) and I have to completely agree, We were offered a gig from said promoters and were shocked by their policy which was exactly the same as what you have described here. Unsigned bands, be very aware of these money grabbing arseholes!

DiP x
 
Posted by Death In Public (Are DEAD) on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 8:35 PM
[Reply to this
Donna-Marie

 
I BLOODY GOOD BLOG i have to say


TOTALLY agree with you. I avoid all that shite at all costs. SOLO and PAY TO PLAY does not work.....DRIVES ME MAD


GUESTLIST RULES !

xxx
 
Posted by Donna-Marie on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 8:44 PM
[Reply to this
The ICE Band

 
Donna highlighted this post to me , must say after our experiece at a recent Manchester festival, I'd say dammed good post and dead on and I wish I had read this post before we did the festi but there you go.
 
Posted by The ICE Band on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 9:04 PM
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snowblind NEED A NEW BASS PLAYER, ENQUIRE WITHIN

 
yeah, absolutely with you on this - both on the count that too many promoters are just sharking bands out of profits / a decent night, and on the count that manchester has one of the most stagnant, inward-looking, apathetic unsigned scenes i've ever come across. i moved here from a two-bit town in north wales to avoid that sort of thing, and the scene's probably better there.

it's no wonder people don't care. everyone's in a band - and most unsigned bands are rubbish. i know; i've seen them. that's why they aren't signed. but the scene is saturated with coolsters who aren't doing or saying anything new, who are terrified of anything that isn't either jingly-jangly, so-called epic, despicably groovy in a white sort of a way or lumpen pub-rock. this means ripping off (principally) a) the libertines, b) the verve, c) the stone roses d) oasis. admittedly, the radio isn't playing anything that derives markedly from this template, but it's a bit sad that the unsigned scene should, by and large, just be a really poor man's version of this.

don't get me wrong. there are some great bands in manchester. but i've been to their gigs. no-one's there. this emphasises your first point - most promoters couldn't care less whether the music's any good or not, and any that do try to break the mould and stick to their principles very quickly go under, because no-one goes to unsigned shows any more. promoters who ask bands that fabled question, 'how many people can you bring down?' should really be asking that of themselves, or just asking, 'why does no-one come to my nights? how come the only people there have been dragged there by the bands themselves? am i just no good at promoting?' but they don't, do they?

no. they don't.
 
Posted by snowblind NEED A NEW BASS PLAYER, ENQUIRE WITHIN on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 5:14 PM
[Reply to this
NOUVELLES natural successors to Stone Roses

 
well said. although i dont know of many oasis wannabee bands, there are plenty of libertines ones. dont let you own personal taste cut you off from your goals and supporters.

good luck.

nouvelles no.1
debut single out now
academy 3 headline fri 13 june
 
Posted by NOUVELLES natural successors to Stone Roses on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 9:37 PM
[Reply to this
Shakey Jakes

 
nuff said
completely agree
Buff bang are ace
Hide n Seek should probs get a mention on there aswell
they pick the bands out based on there sound
 
Posted by Shakey Jakes on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 10:04 PM
[Reply to this
Little Volcanoes

 
:) L/V's x
 
Posted by Little Volcanoes on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 9:30 AM
[Reply to this
Spectral Fires

 
We feel the Manchester music scene would benefit from cheaper gig nights with drink promotions and pre-sell ticket incentives e.g. If a band pre-sells tickets for £3 that should be split in half with the promoter. So if a band doesn’t care so much about money, they can sell tickets for £1.50 or sell at a discounted price so they can cover fuel costs… that way everybody wins!

We feel promoters on the whole are becoming lazy! Most nights we have played in Manchester (apart from one night at the dry bar with DJ samba) we played with bands that don’t come under the same genre as us. When people come to watch a band, more often than not it's the bands’ friends that turn up and so when those friends’ band has played they disappear. How can a band become more popular if they don't play to an unknown audience? The answer is simple- Showcase bands under the same genre and by doing so friends of other bands are more likely to stay longer. This obviously doesn’t take into consideration newspaper/radio/myspace plugs, it goes without saying that the band has to do their bit to help promote their gig, but at the end of the day it’s the promoter’s job to also do this.

Basically something needs to change in the Manchester music scene and for this to happen all bands and artists need to take note of what Buffalo Bill said.

Muchos Lurve!!!
Kitto from SF
 
Posted by Spectral Fires on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 2:21 PM
[Reply to this
Buffalo Bill

 
Well fucking said Monsieur Kitto. £6 to go and watch some band I've never heard? I could go to the record store and get a Bowie gatefold for that and still have money left over for half a pint of chocolate beer. The fact is, the cheaper it is to get in, the more likely you are to get punters in. As Mike Sinner syayed... common sense. Simple common sense. I like Kitto's split priced ticket idea. Obviously a marketing graduate.
 
Posted by Buffalo Bill on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 10:27 AM
[Reply to this
Gasperilla

 
Well said Bill

There are some decent promoters out there, but the problem is a certain somebody seems to have a bit of a monopoly on the whole city...
we need to counter this with more free gigs, follow the example of the Leeds DIY scene.

If we saw more bands putting on their own gigs with other bands who they like and are mates with we could be sharing all the profits.

Right effort though innit?

Maybe Buffalo Bill should just save the day?

XXX
 
Posted by Gasperilla on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 - 10:30 AM
[Reply to this
A Boy Called Doris

 
here here

have to say we thoroughly agree with all of the above - i hate to say it, but i have become increasingly dissapointed with the gig cene or lack of it

there doesnt seem to be any comradery between bands - its like kitto said - we headlined/played last at the roadhouse a few weeks back and we all watched the 1st band on - we then watched them disappear into the back room - we then watched them promptly fuck off takin the 3 people they brought down with them!! when all the bands on the bill do that it makes playing last (formerly known as headlining) a very unrewarding experience (especially as you have to brinig all the backline!!)

i agree with snowblind aswell! i came from a small town about 25 miles north of manchester and as in a band there throughout my late teens - it was great!! all the bands in the town new of each other , and although there was a sence of rivalry at times, we all supported each other and people would come to gigs to watch a night of live bands - not just to watch their mates band and then fuck off!!

id like to see manchester bands working together to create a scene - we should stop playing shoddy nights in badly run venues for promoters who have no idea about the concept of cohesion

surely if we (bands) work together and support one another we can overcome what has become a monumental ball ache!!

[rant over]

lots of hugs

doris

xx
 
Posted by A Boy Called Doris on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 - 11:16 PM
[Reply to this
hollyann

 
all this talk-when's it gonna change? so much wonderful talent in this area musically-so many class venues-don't any of them have the longevity of thought to realise that if they get good acts in they will create a reputation for themselves and punters will want to come and experience some quality music not just support their friends for the umpteenth time.....I always get good vibes from audiences however small but want to play to a crowd (or less!) who wants to hear and experience music for music's sake; not to spend all their money on overpriced beverages, and pat me on the back because they know me....and then disappear as i leave the stage...there are lots of friends are in this queue of replies...isn't anybody just plain tired of the boredom of doing it all the same way...why the ever-decreasing circle of the same old....i always like to hear something new and different....am i from another planet.....maybe.....i'm phoning home now and waiting for the spaceship :)

all good things
 
Posted by hollyann on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 8:27 PM
[Reply to this
Violet Youth

 
We hardly play manchester anymore as we're expected to bring 20 plus peopler to every gig on a wednesday night or something and nobody turns up, in sheffield, liverpool and london the promoters are doing their job to make a bit of honest dosh and we didn't have to bring anyone and there was about 60 people at our gigs it's far better most manchester promoters are useless if you want my advice put your own night on,

also the variety thing is a bit stupid where as there is a load of boring indie bands out there you get that in any town, we've got tons of decent sounding bands round here who put on great shows to around 5 people we just haven't got the fans in manchester if you go to a bands gig you're more likely to bump into other bands who are there because they turned up to their shows etc
 
Posted by Violet Youth on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 4:34 PM
[Reply to this
The ICE Band

 
Has anybody had any experience of Glasswerk keep receiving mails from them and recently enquired whats expected you dont have to sell tickets but you do have to bring a crowd. Which for us is difficult as the gigs are in Manchester and we're in the outback ie Rossendale.
 
Posted by The ICE Band on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:57 PM
[Reply to this
guestlist

 
We had heard they require bands to bring a crowd, which seems a little silly as they are meant to be promoting the event?!!
 
Posted by guestlist on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 9:09 PM
[Reply to this
Violet Youth

 
glasswerk are crap they didn't bother at our night and they said they would, plus they didn't tell us when soundchecks were or put any posters up or anything like that, some of the bands didnt even bother turning up, don't bother with them
 
Posted by Violet Youth on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 4:19 PM
[Reply to this
THE PLANETS

 
I agree. It really hit home when I went to a certain InTheCity event this year, run by a certain chap we all love. Most bands were pretty awful and it seemed a shame that a prestigious venue had been 'hijacked' by this promoter (as it is every year) and turned into a 'pay to play in the city' event. This is just giving the Manchester scene a bad name when there is no shortage of great bands who were brushed aside. I think as well as bands standing up for themselves and each other, paying customers should start to complain, like in a restaurant...if the food was poor you'd complain. Go up to the promoter and in the nicest was say '3 of these bands were gash and I want a refund.' You wouldn't get one and its pretty harsh (and also a matter of opinion) but if all paying punters started to demand quality then they would soon get it.
 
Posted by THE PLANETS on Saturday, November 01, 2008 - 3:36 PM
[Reply to this
Second City Magazine

 
We feel exactly the same way about pay-to-play.
Absolute joke. Nobody wins - except the "promoter".
It'd be difficult to convince them to, but if enough bands boycotted such schemes, they'd eventually be extinct in Manchester.
There's no shortage of good promoters here, ones that lose money more often than breaking even. Don't settle for playing for people that aren't passionate about music in the first place.
Alston - Second City Magazine x
 
Posted by Second City Magazine on Sunday, November 02, 2008 - 1:32 AM
[Reply to this
... NO FLASH ...

 
So refreshing to hear this stuff from you guys. As a reasonably new band NO FLASH have been inolved in events that have been mentioned, we have however managed to promote ourselves quite well and get a fair amount of people to come down. I think the future like people have said is to join together and start putting on nights ourselves.

NO FLASH
 
Posted by ... NO FLASH ... on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 12:48 PM
[Reply to this