I used to get tons of messages and comments on this because it seems to "get people thinking" - and there's nothing I love more than a little controversial, "REAL" thinking. So since it is nearing disappearing from my blogs/close to the bottom - in the "older archive" - I figured I'd just re-post it since I am pretty sure that no one ever sees it anymore. Anywho, just for fun and a little digging through your brain for a thought on something that matters more than "what did you do last night?" or some common conversation starter we all drudge through on a day-to-day basis.

(I included previous comments - just because!)


[25 Feb 2006 | Saturday]


No Church, No Faith?
Current mood: contemplative
Category: Religion and Philosophy

(The whole point of this is a few paragraphs down, but here goes the intro/explanation! :) )

Well, this new job of mine consists of roadtripping to churches to take photographs of the members to create thier church directory (a book full of activity pages, staff member photos, church member photos, etc). I am currently a salesperson (but will be "training" as of Monday to take portraits - thank God!)...
We were at a church today packing up our equipment. We spent a full day there yesterday and finished up today. The members weren't particularly freindly, somewhat rude, and very unappreciative. Yet I continued my proffessional, freindly attitute, cause that's what I do! :) Afterall, people are people, and so they deserve to be treated as such even when it seems they shouldn't be.
Close to the time we were finished packing up, the pastor asked me (nearly shouting across the room in that oh so familiar hill-billy manner) what church I attended. I could have lied and made something up to avoid the preaching I knew was coming, but I am not a liar - especially to a pastor! So, I informed him that I do not attend church. This is the moment when I got that "invasion of the body snatchers" look by everyone in the room; like I didn't belong and I was some kind of freak. I could have went into this big long explanation about the fact I don't believe prayer works or that I don't like to follow organized religion or that most "Christians" I know are simply hypocrits... but I didn't. I simply made clear that I am a good person with strong faith, beliefs, morals, convictions, etc.. who simply does not go to church. This preaching coming from a group of men who sat and watched 3 worn out women lift and load heavy equipment into a van without offering help. Not that we'd have accepted, or that is "what makes a Christian," but a truly good person helps someone in need even when they don't want to.... be a gentleman for crying out loud! But that's beside the point!

So now that I've opened the subject, I'd like to explain my thoughts and beliefs a little further (incase anyone cares to know! :) )... Don't get me wrong, I have VERY strong belief and faith in God... I don't think there's any way it could possibly be stronger. I truly am a good person, with strong morals, convictions, etc etc. I live the kind of life I believe people are supposed to lead. However, I will never be convinced by anyone that prayer changes the course of things. (this is where all you "super Christians" are gasping!) Don't misunderstand, I do believe God has the power to change things... but believe that he doesn't. "Why?" you ask...? The answer is simple (well, simple to me, but perhaps a little complicated): I refuse to believe God is a murderer... (again, a whole other story). If God changes things because a certain person asks him to, wouldn't he be "playing favorites?" Wouldn't that completely iliminate the entire point of free will? If things are controlled and whatnot...? Why have faith if God will only always say no to you.. and yes to someone else? If you ask me, things simply happen... God watches and sees, knows what is, what will be, what has been (of course); and if He so wills it, can change something from the smallest insignificant situation to completely altering the course of time. But doesn't - He would rather see how things unfold, see how we react, what we do, where situations lead us, if our faith becomes shaken... things such as that. This simple thing I strongly beleive in is enough to make a lot of "churchie" people shun me... but why should I hang around those people anyway? In the area I live, a church is simply a place where people go to disrespect and gossip about the community, run down the way they live thier lives, and then when they exit those "holy" doors, they leave that holiness behind and live the kind of life they just looked down upon. That's not what I'm all about, I don't appreciate hypocracy. If you're going to live your life a certain way, don't lie about it. Be proud of whatever you are, or do not be that way... and if you are a "holy person" then live your life that way! And that, if you ask me, is what makes a Christian. Not regular church attendance, not prayer (by prayer I mean "please let me have this" blah blah - nothing wrong with simply speaking to God); but the way you lead your life and treat your fellow humans. Live a life of respect, morals, faith, values, convictions, goals and do no serious wrong. Isn't that what is it all about? Loving and helping one another, treating everyone with whom you come into contact with ulitmate respect and kindness? It is to me... there's more to faith and religion than hanging out in a building once a week. It's what you do when you're not there that counts the most. But that's just what I believe :)

9:05 PM - 10 Comments - 10 Kudos - Add Comment - Edit - Remove

Crisco


I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY YOU THINK THE WAY YOU DO. FOR THE MOST PART, WHAT YOUVE ENCOUNTERED IS RELIGION. THERE IS GREAT DEAL OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RELIGION AND CHRISTIANITY. RELIGION IS A SET OF RULES AND TRADITIONS SET FORTH BY MEN TO MOLD YOU INTO A PRECONCIEVED IDEA OF WHAT THEY THINK GOD WANTS YOU TO BE. CHRISTIANITY IS A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. I APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT. I WOULD VALUE YOUR OPINION OF MINE.............M

Posted by Crisco on [27 Feb 2006 | Monday] at 12:27 AM
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Hoppe


You don't know me or anything. I am just a random person who came across your profile and read your blog. However, I wanted to say that your rant on organized christianity is exactly the reason I stopped attending church myself. I always believed that faith is something individual. Although some people have the need to get group reenforcement of their faith (attending church or bible studies), many others can understand and have faith on their own. They live a good, moral life and don't feel the need to "pray" in large groups, or have others hear their sins and forgive them. As you said, much prayer is selfish "give me this" or "please make this happen" nonsense, which totally contradictory to many aspects of christianity.

I'm always glad to see there are more with a progressive, individual view towards faith.

Posted by Hoppe on [24 Mar 2006 | Friday] at 10:47 PM
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Charlie


Hi there! First let me say that im a Christian, and also think that church is essential for the Christian walk. Now some things that you said stuck me as off color in regards to what the Bible teaches, at least as far as God has shown me.

"Live a life of respect, morals, faith, values, convictions, goals and do no serious wrong. Isn't that what is it all about?"

Christ gives us the summation of all the commandments when he says,"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'Luke 10:27

Ask anyone you talk to if they fufill these two commandments and theyll respond in one of two ways. The first will be much like your response, "I am a good person with strong faith, beliefs, morals, convictions, etc.. who simply does not go to church." In the eyes of the world we may think we are pretty "good" people because there are others out there who are much worse then us. There are killers and adulterers and liars and theives and on and on, but when it comes right down to it we are just as guilty. One sin, one lie, one lustful thought, one ounce of anger is all it takes to taint us, and thats on top of sin inherited from Adam. This is what the Bible says, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."(Romans 3:10)[God is that Holy. God word says, "But we are all like an unclean thing, and all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags." (Isa. 64:6) May point is this, compared to God we are all sinners. This is why Christ died on the cross. So that the wrath of God could be satisfied and those God called could become heirs with Christ. All the people in Church are not Christians, and any person there should be the first to admit that they fall waaaay short of Gods standard. Its only by Christs sacrifice that we have firm ground to stand on. What about Church? Why is it necessary? Because we do sin, and desire to do what is wrong. Because we constantly supress the truth about who we are and who God is, this is the reason we need to be in Church. Not so we can talk about people and gossip, but so we can here the truth of God's word and be transformed by it. Ill be in church tomorrow bright and early because I need to, because without it Ill fall away from the truth, ill embrace myself, and turn away from God. If you have any questions or would like to talk about this more please feel free to drop me a line.

Humbly in Christ,

charlie



Posted by Charlie on [07 May 2006 | Sunday] at 11:36 PM
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Luni


Wow...Charlie is one of those fanatics. Wake up and realize that there is no invisible man looking down from the clouds waiting for you to break one of his 10 rules so he can cast you into a burning inferno where you will scream and burn in agony for all time....but...he loves you. LOL. Oh and lets not forget that he needs money...for all his devine power, he seems to have money management skills.

Posted by Luni on [09 Sep 2006 | Saturday] at 3:33 PM
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Holly


Charlie-

"we can here the truth of God's word and be transformed by it" - that never happens in church. Not here anyway. Sure, that's what it should be for, but unfortunately is not the case.

I completely disagree that a lustful thought or anger is just as bad a sin as lying or MURDERING. If someone annoys me and I think "man, he really pissed me off" - it's not as if killing him is the same level of sin... I won't be convinced otherwise.

I'm glad you're happy with your church and you feel you need it, so you go. That's wonderful. I however, do not feel as though it is something I need, especially to be close to God. I personally don't need church for that. Just me - how I am. Not to mention how many flukes there are in the Bible, things that have been lost in traslation or altered by uptight Puritans... but that's a whole other story ;) I can't believe 100% in everything it says because it is not 100% accurate. I can however, have faith in my own beliefs and God without having to follow the opinions of others on the subject. But again, that's just me :)

Thanks for reading & for the comments! I appreciate hearing others' points of view.

Posted by Holly on [09 May 2006 | Tuesday] at 12:01 AM
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Crystal


I agree with you, Holly. Of course, I am from the same wonderful town you speak of. I went to church as a child with my Grandma Lillie. My wonderful Aunt on my Dad's side was my Sunday School teacher. So when my parents got divorced she would talk about my Mom in Sunday school in front of the class. She said my Mom was "out in the bars all the time" which was untrue because my Mom had me and my sister to take care of. Actually my Dad was the one out in the bars which is partially why they got divorced in the first place. Also she tried to act all high and mighty because she and her husband go to church but they don't lead a very "Christian life" . She was pregnant when she got married and so was her son's wife when he and his wife got married. Yet she looked down on me and my sister for having children out of wedlock. I am not perfect by any means, but I do try to "do unto others as I would have them do unto me". I feel I am close to God and I am trying to figure out what it is I want to teach my son. I want him to make up his own mind about religion just as my Mom has let me do. I just want him to have some basics to start with. Believe me I get alot of slack about not attending church especially since I've had him. My Mom had a really great friend who was a preacher and he and his wife are what I consider true Christians. Neither one of them asked my Mom to attend church with them. When they met she was a single mom of two children with no help finacially from the father and he did not take his visitations. (Which being a single parent makes things a little harder because you never get a break unless you pay someone or you "burden" your friends.) Anyway they would come over to our house and help with things. Such as till up a piece of our yard for a garden. Took me and my sister for a while to give my Mom a break. Things that showed her how to be a Christian instead of preaching it. This made her want to go to the church they attended without them asking. Since then they have moved and so have we, but they are still friends. My point is if more people were like my Mom's friends and showed the Christian way more instead of preaching it then church wouldn't have the labels they do.



Posted by Crystal on [27 Jun 2006 | Tuesday] at 1:26 PM
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Jeremiah™


Wellllll, I don't want to make you mad, so please don't take this the wrong way. Besides, I know I'm not going to change your mind by anything I say. All I would like to say is this....while your opinions make plenty of logical sense, they are not really backed up by what the bible says. No, you do NOT have to go to church to be saved or go to heaven, but the bible does command Christians to go to church, as the fellowship and teaching can be very beneficial. (See Hebrews 10:25). Also, the whole prayer thing is quite off from scripture.

The only reason I point this out is that once you just try to rationalize things instead of going by the text of the bible (which I believe is the inspired word of God), then there's no telling how many other roads it'll lead you down.

I do DEFINITELY understand your views on how so many churches are full of hypocrites and all of that. However, not all churches are like that, and even if they are, wouldn't it be easier to impact them and change them there instead of keeping to yourself?

Anyways, hope you dont get mad at me!

Posted by Jeremiah™ on [15 Jul 2006 | Saturday] at 1:51 PM
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Matt


I'm a Christian and I didn't gasp.

Posted by Matt on [05 Aug 2006 | Saturday] at 1:07 AM
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Stephanie


I agree, but what the others say is true - it disagrees with the bible. If you find conflict with all of the mistranslations, you could try the Mormon faith, which was supposedly interpreted directly into English only 200yrs ago. But, you will find the same sadistic demanding personality that's in the Old Testament. So.. why not drop the bible alltogether? All the good in it can be found in Eastern teachings that don't also support a god of war and prejudice. But if you believe faith in Christ is the only way to heaven, Christ was a Jew who believed in the Old Testament god, so it sounds like an impossible situation. Just curious.

Posted by Stephanie on [09 Aug 2006 | Wednesday] at 8:45 PM
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Rob


Wow looks like we have the whole gamut of religous philosophies. Sounds like Charlie there'd get along great with John Calvin. The only problem with the belief that the bible was written or inspired by God is that the belief is wrong. In about the fourth century after Christ, the Church Fathers got together and decided what was caonnon, apocrypha and what was heretical. To compound the problem, there were at that time several versions of the gospels and other texts floating around. In fact several of the books in the current bible were almost excluded from the final cannon. The Revelation of John comes to mind. It was almost replaced by the Revelation of Peter, which had a very interesting message. Jesus told Peter in a dream that because of his sacrifice people were saved. The very act of Crucifiction saved everyone. Belief didn't matter, it was of course important to honor Christ's sacrifice, but that was not needed to be forgiven. The problem is that if people believe that then there's no reason to live a righteous life. Sad in a way really, we should be grateful enough to honor Christ's sacrifice by living as he taught, all men and women are brothers and sisters, one family under God the Father. Not a bad thing to believe if you ask me.

Another thing you can't get away from no matter your flavor of Christianity is the fact that most beliefs on redemption and forgiveness come from the City of God by St. Agustine. He was an interesting guy. He dabbled in many religions and philosophies before his conversion to Catholicism. He was a Cynic, Stoic, dabbled in mystery cults, Bacchanae feasts, hedonistic pursuits. Near the end of his life and after his conversion, he was filled with immense guilt and remorse for the "unholy" life he led and this came out in his writings. That's why people are worthless and degraded and dependent on the mercy of a wrathful God. Charlie might like "Sinners in the hands of an angry God". It was a sermon given by a Puritan preacher in the 1600's in New England. In it he described in great detail the torments awating sinners and since everyone was a sinner, everyone could look forward to those torments. Most of his cogregation missed the very end of his sermon. They were probably in shock from his descriptions of the fate awaiting sinners. Later that day about a quarter of his congregation killed themselves figuring they had nothing to lose anyway. The worst part about this story is that at the very end the preacher said that God has every reason to crush the sinner, but He doesn't, God's mercy is what saves us. It's a shame his congreation didn't hear that part.

But you shouldn't disparage others for thier beliefs, non-beliefs and fears. No matter what you do you're an example to others. Great good or great evil can come from your actions or lack thereof. We've been given this Creation to make a Heaven or Hell of it as we choose. Oh and Holly, don't get so down on prayer. The people who pray for things, they really miss the point. The point of prayer is to listen. To hear the small still voice of God. He whisperes to us all the time, that he loves us, wishes us well; much like a Father to a child. But like a child the choice is ours. Each one of us has to make the choice, alone; to decide which way our life will go.

Posted by Rob on [07 Sep 2006 | Thursday] at 7:27 PM
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