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ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7)



Last Updated: 11/18/2009

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City: Inland Empire (Riverside)
Country: US
Signup Date: 8/7/2005

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Wednesday, August 13, 2008 

Category: News and Politics
You shall not despise an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not despise an Egyptian, for you were an alien (immigrant) in his land;
(Deu 23:7)

Building on what I wrote last time dealing with Immigrants and those who call themselves Christians (you can read it in my blog if you haven't), I wanted to extend the idea on the relationship. So far, I have only talked about it from the perspective of the duties of the society where Immigrants are coming into.

But Torah also tells us of the Immigrant's duty in the society which it finds itself.

First, let me explain about Egypt and the Israelites. The children of Israel sought refuge in Egypt after a famine wiped out the crops in Palestine, being welcomed by the Egyptian government at the time. After many years the Egyptians became frightened of an Israelite "Reconquista" plot (no joke!), and began enslaving Israelites. This lasted for 400 years. After this time, the Israelites were freed from their captors, taken back to Palestine, and on the way were told the instructions given above. To not hate those who had been enslaving and abusing them for 400 years.

This goes back to the general Torah based satyagraha (non-violent love) principle that we are to love those who hate us and do good to those who do evil to us. Even when that evil is slavery and oppression.

(BTW, this is something I really struggle doing!!!! I don't want to look like I'm pointing fingers.)

Does this mean we should remain in slavery? By no means! The Israelites did not and neither should you if you are oppressed. Seek freedom when you can, Messiah teaches as much.

So to apply this to America, we would translate:

"Do not hate the American, for you were an immigrant in his country"

Now how many of you just translated "American" as "White Person" or pictured that in your head? Raise you hand. Ok, wrong translation. You should have read "American" as "Native". This is their country. (This is not a European country, they have simply been colonizing it for the time being.) We (non-natives) are all aliens in their lands. Therefore, we should have no hatred towards Natives.

Or if you're Australian, for Aborigines. Or if you live in Hawaii, for actual Hawaiian Natives. Or if you're South African, for Blacks.

Ok, now that I got your thinking changed, let's ask, can we apply this to White Amerika and Immigrants? I think we can. If we think of White Amerika as a large immigrant society welcoming (or more often than not, not welcoming) immigrants into their community. It is one immigrant society taking in more immigrants, of a different country of origin. In this case, the general prinicple still applies: we are to not hate the same racists who hate us. We are not to hate White Amerika, though they oppress us. Even though these Latino "immigrants" have more of a right to be in America due to their ancestral heritage. For the time being, we are moving into a White Amerikan (illegal itself) community. Therefore, we are to practice love towards those who do evil to us.

(Hard to do! But it is what is required of us.)

So, let's think of another example that actually involves White Europeans as the rightful owners of a land, where it is not a colonial situation: England. That land belongs to Brits, and those of us who are non-Brits living there would be the immigrants spoken of. So if you are, for example, an Indian or African living in Britain, you are to not hate the Brits, even though they oppressed you in their land. What they did (oppression) is evil, but we are to love those who do evil to us, simply because this is what Messiah would do. And it is what he did.

Ok, so hopefully I didn't lose you all in the application.

Another verse in the same chapter teaches:

You shall not hand over to his master a slave that has escaped from his master to you. He shall live with you, among you, in the place which he chooses inside one of your gates, wherever it is good to him. You shall not oppress him.
(Deu 23:15-16)

We are taught that we are not to return (deport) those who seek refuge in our land, even if they are breaking the law to do so. (A runaway slave would be at very least a civil-violator.)  This should speak to anyone who says "But Illegal Immigrants are breaking the law!" G-d would say to you: So what. The law was made for humans, humans were not made for the law. We are to give immigrants refuge and not return them to their masters (government and economic conditions responsible for their seeking refuge.) We are to let them settle among us and not oppress them.

Again, person claiming the title of "Christian", if you follow Messiah, listen to the teaching of how we are supposed to treat those who are aliens among us. We are to welcome them and help them; not oppress them, capture them and deport them. In the same way, if you are an immigrant yourself, you are to not hate those whom you dwell among, regardless of their treatment towards you.

Atom
Currently reading:
Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome
By John, C. Sanford
Release date: 25 October, 2005
Manifest

 

Very enlightening bro, I see many "Christians" walking around with so much hate in their heart for people who they see as violators of a "law" not knowing they're violating the essence of their faith by doing so.


 
Posted by Manifest on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:52 PM
[Reply to this
Tyrone
Tyrone Lamoureux

 
I agree wholeheartedly save for one thing.

We shouldn't do this for the sole reason that "this is what the messiah would do." if you think of it like that, you aren't truly understanding your role in God's kingdom. Everyman and woman has a little Christ within them, and they can release it through alot of self searching, and becoming aware of the true light of spirituality in this world. Currently, alot of the dark in spirituality is proliferated, whether we realize it on a lower level, or the higher ups know and are just taking advantage. Sooner or later the light is going to come back into play, and we'll do exactly as you say.

The trick is to come out with a true understanding that regardless of your fellow human's perspective, he has a family, friends, people who love him, and for good reason. Who are you to judge this person as a bad person? You aren't anyone. You can barely judge yourself at this point. Forgive another soul for its indiscretions throughout its journey, that person hasn't learned its lessons about what you already know. Have faith that life will show him the path. Perhaps his oppression of yourself is a part of his path, who knows.


When someone tries to be beligerant towards you in a situation, that is him trying to control your situation, trying to manipulate your thoughts in some way, therefore receiving an energy boost. If you can ignore his purge for your energy and just lend it to him at the same time, you will catch him/her off guard.


Anyways, I could continue on, but I should leave this as so. :)




Kudos,



Tyrone Lamoureux Aka. OneRyt

 
Posted by Tyrone on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 4:55 PM
[Reply to this
ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7)

 

Thank you for your perspective Tyrone.

To pattern my life after Messiah is the only way I know how to improve my life. My own reasoning can easily lead me astray. For example, I can think of a million reasons why it is natural for me to seek to eliminate my enemies and do harm to those who do harm to me. I can even justify it as "helping" them in a way: by punishing their deviant behavior I am helping to shape them into better people, in a Pavlovian manner. Loving those who do evil will only encourage more of that behavior, so faulty human thinking easily goes...

But on the other hand, Messiah teaches us counter-intuitive concepts such as satyagraha. To love those who do evil. Why should I do this? At the end of the day, simply because those who I truly admire (Yeshua, Gandhi, Dr MLK) acted in this way and it worked. If I want to be more like them (especially more like Messiah) then I have to do what they did.

In addition to this, yes, there are several logical reasons why the path of satyagraha is the one we should follow, such as it being the only thing that can transform hearts in a conflict. But these are secondary reasons. The primary is that I want to be a follower of Messiah and become like him, so I must do what he practiced and what he commanded.

If you call yourself a Christian, you MUST do what Messiah said to do. That includes treating immigrants with compassion, love, hospitality and welcoming them to stay in your community.


 
Posted by ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7) on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:34 PM
[Reply to this
Tyrone
Tyrone Lamoureux

 
I definitely do not follow Christianity, but spirituality and God. The ultimate logos of our solar system if you may.

You say showing compassion to your enemy is a secondary logic path, in that you know they will be swayed differently with that frame of mind, however, it becomes primary when your goal is for that of the avancement of your people, whom I assume you mean to be humanity as a whole. If you are aware of the divisions and the ways that things are done in a wrong way, then it should become your primary focus, not to be like the messiah, but to follow the same life path as them, using the same logic they provided into our human existence.

Thank you for the discussion,



Tyrone Aka. OneRyt

 
Posted by Tyrone on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 4:43 PM
[Reply to this
elsa
elsa escarcega

 

As a citizen of the world, of a community, of any kind of religion and of a organization it is important for us to understand that we must respect and love others. Aliens, natives, whites, blacks, any type or category existed to classsify a person shouldn't have influence in how we treat people. I am a U.S. citizen, yet I identify with immigrants and as well with third genertion of latino immigrants. It is imperative for people to see others for what the are, for what they think, for what they carry behind, for what they say not for what they represent or seem to like. When assimilating that we are world that works together (or should), we are leaving the baby stage of socialization and finally we are acknowledging we all are humas and we all have the same value as citizens of one world. 

 


 
Posted by elsa on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 4:58 AM
[Reply to this
D. Daniel

 
One thing, and only because I know that you are culturally sensitive. I grew up in Hawai'i, having lived there for 20 years. My family in Hawai'i goes back 2 generations. That does not make me Hawaiian. Hawaii is not like Texas, where the residents are Texans, Hawaiian refers to a specific ethnic subgroup of Polynesians that, prior to their Queen being stripped of her power and imprisoned by the US military, was a soveriegn country with their own printed money, diplomats, and Monarchy. Claiming to be Hawaiian if not ethnically so can be an invitation to violence. It's a sore spot w/ many Hawaiians, not unlike Original American resentment to most Caucasoid Americans saying that they 'have Cherokee on their Mother's side'.


Other than that, keep pulling away the curtain.

 
Posted by D. Daniel on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 10:48 AM
[Reply to this
ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7)

 
Sorry for the offense, I couldn't think of another way to describe a person from the state of Hawaii. I guess "Hawaiian Resident"?

Your point is bascially what I was tryign to make in that sentence: those who are not Native Hawaiians should have respect an honor those whose land they are staying in. I'll edit the above, sorry for any unintentional offense.

 
Posted by ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7) on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:07 PM
[Reply to this
Heather®

 

More Kudos for part II.  I, again, agree with you whole-heartedly. 

On a somewhat related note, I saw this great t-shirt the other day.  On it there was pictured several noble looking Native-Americans with rifles in their hands and the caption read: "Fighting terrorism since 1492"   


 
Posted by Heather® on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 3:01 AM
[Reply to this
D. Daniel

 
I saw a similar one that said 'Department of Homeland Defense'
 
Posted by D. Daniel on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 6:38 PM
[Reply to this
Matt the Christian
Matt Christian

 
I think that non-violence is totally counter intuitive for humans. When a little kid gets his toy stolen from him whats his reaction? typically its either violence or crying for someone else with more strength to come and get his toy back for him. If non-violence was a normal mind state we wouldnt think it extrordinary when people like Ghandi or MLK Jr arrive on the scene. But its morally the right way, and we know that because of what God commanded in the old testament and what Jesus demonstrated in the new. And the early church practised.(most early church fathers were pacifists) Good post homie.

 
Posted by Matt the Christian on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 7:16 AM
[Reply to this
DJ Damo

 

Not to detract from the wisdom of Jesus, Ghandi and Martin Luther King, for their path is one that is neccessary to overcome emotional obsticals that are keeping people seperate, in the long term.  However people walking this path alone will not take us where we need to go absent those walking the path of say Malcolm Shabazz.  I don't think that turning the other cheek is the right way to go.  It doesn't make your enemy respect you, but instead reaffims their belief that you are weak and not worthy of being treated as an equal.  It's good to try to heal divides, but while doing so we all have to stand tall and not comprimise our self respect. 

In the wise words of Tupac Amaru Shakur,

"No Malcolm X in my history text why is that?

Cause he tried to educate and liberate all blacks,

Why is Martin Luther King in my book each week?

He tolds blacks if they get smacked, turn the other cheek."

Now this is pure speculation cause I've never looked into it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the whole turn the other cheek ideology got played up in revisions of the bible during a time period when those with the power to make and disseminate these revisions had an interest in making those they oppressed more pliable and manipulatable.  In my opinion peace will come about when the elements of society that keep peace from being a reality are removed from said society.

In the wise words of you,

"the struggle is our obligation,

if you ain't fighting for,

then your holding back your people some more.'


 
Posted by DJ Damo on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 10:14 PM
[Reply to this
Matt the Christian
Matt Christian

 

No disrespect by any means.

 

"Now this is pure speculation cause I've never looked into it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the whole turn the other cheek ideology got played up in revisions of the bible during a time period when those with the power to make and disseminate these revisions had an interest in making those they oppressed more pliable and manipulatable.  In my opinion peace will come about when the elements of society that keep peace from being a reality are removed from said society."

The earliest manuscripts for this particular portion of scripture is dated at around 64 A.D. At that time the church was opressed. Note that the early Christians didnt start a violent revolution to overthrow Roman opression. Instead they continued in their teaching and fed poor people, took care of widows that didnt belong to the church, . Rome didnt come to accept Christianity until after it saw Christians dispossesed of their property, fed to wild animals, and, treated spitefully. The church demonstrated that. Sadly the church in many ways has departed from that. And in later centuries we see the church violently taking and using people. But not in A.D. 64


 
Posted by Matt the Christian on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 6:15 PM
[Reply to this
ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7)

 
"It doesn't make your enemy respect you, but instead reaffims their belief that you are weak and not worthy of being treated as an equal."

There is a scene in "Gandhi" the movie where Gandhi and a white friend are walking down a street and at the end of that street they notice a group of young men who begin calling Gandhi by racist names, since he was Indian, holding rocks in their hands. The white friend turns to him and says "Maybe we should go another way", but Gandhi reminds him:

"Didn't Jesus say that if your enemy strikes you on one cheek, offer him the other?"

The friend, clearly puzzled, explains:

"I'm sure that's not what Jesus meant. He probably meant it as a..."

But Gandhi has already began walking towards them, looking them in the eye and smiling politely. In other words, showing both his defiance and his courage. The young men were stunned enough to not do anything but step to the side.

Kind-defiance (what Gandhi called "satyagraha" or "soul-force") in action not only gains the respect of your enemy, but also shows him how cowardly he really is. When faced with true courage, false strength becomes apparent.

So I disagree that satyagraha will make your enemy think you're weak; weak men run, or try to fight back and end their torment. They don't stand their ground in full courage, unafraid of what damage you might inflict on them.
 
Posted by ATOM tha Immortal (Secta 7) on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 11:08 PM
[Reply to this
Tyrone
Tyrone Lamoureux

 

Thanks for mentioning that movie, Ive not seen it and am now making it a point to purchase it.

 

:)


 
Posted by Tyrone on Sunday, May 06, 2007 - 8:38 AM
[Reply to this
Tyrone
Tyrone Lamoureux

 
Was brought back to this post after a long while, I think I needed a reminder of some things. :) 

Mucho respect ATOM... (real name?) 

 
Posted by Tyrone on Monday, August 17, 2009 - 5:02 AM
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