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Tidejwe Dezod (Jon)



Last Updated: 5/21/2009

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Gender: Male
Status: Married
Age: 30
City: LOGAN
State: Utah
Country: US
Signup Date: 9/17/2005

Who Gives Kudos:


Monday, March 26, 2007 

Category: Religion and Philosophy
This is another blog that is being written for use in my future debates in the Myspace forums I am always in. Since this topic comes up SOOOO Frequently, I've agreed to turn my arguments into a blog to simply link to here, especially since I know of no other more complete list of sources than I have. If you have some I am missing, PLEASE post them. I lost some that I once had, so I know there are more out there (in other words, this blog is subject to being updated in the future).

Now first off, I am not judging those in the LDS church who either drink or don't drink caffeinated beverages. For the record, I drink them from time to time when I am really tired, or when I get those Energy drinks (Rockstars, Red Bulls, etc) free at work, or when we accidentally buy them from the store not knowing they had caffeine. Sometimes I just plain feel like a Mountain Dew or something. I drink at least a couple dozen Caffeinated drinks a year I'm sure...so rest assurred this is NOT some mote in your eye, beam in my own eye type of blog.

Now that we have that out of the way, it is true that there is no officially ENFORCED Policy in the church on Caffeinated soda/pop beverages. If you drink Coke or Pepsi or whatever, it won't keep you from getting a temple recommend, or from taking the sacrament, nor will you suddenly stop having/feeling the spirit. You won't be disciplined by the church in any way.

Condemnation
Now just because something doesn't stop you from getting a temple recommend doesn't mean it's good for you either. It all boils down to "Condemnation", which doesn't mean the same thing as "Damnation". Damnation means your progression is STOPPED. Condemnation means that though you won't "LOSE" the spirit, you may not progress AS FAST as you COULD had you been a bit more faithful. As an extreme example, President Kimball got distracted by a little bird chirping during a sacrament meeting once, and felt so horrible that he had to repent! How many of us would feel utterly sinful for being distracted for a second during a meeting? Of course he was trying to live to a higher standard than most of us, but that's the point. That's probably part of our punishment on the other side of the veil, seeing the blessings we COULD have enjoyed had we been a bit more faithful. While drinking caffeine or even watching certain R-rated movies won't keep you out of the Temple or Celestial Kingdom, they may SLOW your progression. It's similar to President Kimball...if you want to be on a higher level then work at it and live a higher standard, but otherwise you won't go to hell for it, and you won't entirely lose the spirit like popular mormon myth claims. According to President Benson and the D&C, every one of us is ALWAYS under some form of condemnation (not progressing as fast as we have potential to).

Chocolate
Some people try to make all sorts of justifications to explain (aka JUSTIFY) why drinking caffeinated Soda is ok, but Coffee is still bad. We've all heard the arguments that Caffeine couldn't possibly be bad because then we'd have to outlaw chocolate too. Actually, that's not true. It's true that Chocolate does have theobromine (xantheose) in it, which is similar to Caffeine in that they are both xanthines, but they are very different from each other:

Here's some differences between the two if you really care to know:

Theobromine:
gentle
mild effect
very slow onset
long lasting
50% in bloodstream after 6 to 10 hrs
increases feeling of well being
mild antidepressant
gentle, smooth, sensual stimulation
stimulates cardiovascular system
stimulates muscular system
mild effect on central nervous system
almost no one is allergic
not addictive
no withdrawal symptoms
mild diuretic
stimulates the the kidneys


CAFFEINE:
intense
strong effect
fast acting
rapid dissipation
50% in bloodstream after 2 to 5 hrs
increases alertness
increases emotional stress
jagged, nervous stimulation
stimulates cardiovascular system
stimulates respiratory system
strong effect on central nervous system
many people allergic
physically addictive
many proven withdrawal symptoms
extreme diuretic
requires large intake of fluids to balance the diuretic effect



Most people mistake the two because they're both xanthines. It's also possible to find trace amounts of caffeine in the hulls of the Cacao seeds but they're discarded before processing. MOST OF THE TIME that you read about caffeine in chocolate it's an ignorant over sight because it's not native to chocolate, Theobromine is. So no...outlawing Caffeine would not outlaw chocolate, but it was a nice attempt at justification anyway. :)

Then you see people making claims about how no prophet or church leader has ever specifically said we shouldn't drink Caffeine. This too, is not correct. For those of you blindly in denial, here are your references (keep in mind I am not judging, as I admit to drinking caffeine myself...I just want people to quit being in denial):


On Cola drinks
"I say to the Latter-day Saints, and it is my right to say it (he then says because you have sung and quotes from 'We Thank Thee, O God, For a Prophet). Now, if you mean it--I am not going to give any command, but I will ask it as a personal, individual favor to me, to let coca-cola alone. There are plenty of other things you can get at the soda fountains without drinking that which is injurious. The Lord does not want you to use any drug that creates an appetite for itself." Heber J. Grant

"I have the statement on the examination of a capable chemist that cola drinks contain caffeine, the element that is so prevalent in coffee and other stimulants. There is one thing that I do know, however: this stimulating drink is not served in my home, and no matter where I am I personally avoid it." Joseph Fielding Smith

"Caffeine is a drug. It is classed as a narcotic. Constant use of caffeine, whether in coffee, tea or soft drinks, can have only a dangerous effect upon the human system.
"Studies even now are showing that coffee may be attacked as vigorously as tobacco now is when the scientists studying it assemble all their data." Church News editorial, April 25, 1970, p.16.

the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.'" (Clifford J. Stratton, "Caffeine—The Subtle Addiction, " Ensign, June 1988, 60; Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1972)

In 1996 President Hinkley had the following conversation with Mike Wallace on 60 minutes:
Wallace: Mormons adhere to a very strict health code. No alcohol, no tobacco, no coffee, no tea, not even caffeinated soft drinks?
Hinkley: Right.

Wallace: eat meat sparingly, exercise?
Hinkley: Right.
Wallace: get plenty of sleep.
Hinkley: Right. It's wonderful!

In a 1997 interview, David Ransom and President Hinkley had the following exchange:
Ransom: But you do condemn so many things that are commonly accepted. For example no sex before marriage. No tobacco, no alcohol, no gambling not even coffee.
Hinckley: Yeah that's right.
Ransom: And very, very strict.
Hinckley: That's wonderful. And you live longer. And you're happier. And you're healthier.
Ransom: What's wonderful about not drinking coffee?
Hinckley: Oh ah coffee has all kinds of caffeine in it.


Interview with Larry King Live:
Larry King: No to caffeine?
Gordon B. Hinckley: No to caffeine, coffee and tea.

"We have a Word of Wisdom that says if there's anything that's bad, we should avoid it. The Word of Wisdom doesn't mention arsenic, but we know to avoid that. We don't need to be commanded in all things." -Boyd K Packer

"Two of the tests we can employ as we question the use of any food or beverage are: Is it wholesome? Is it prudent? As we know, some of us need more rest than others. These same principles imply that we should not tax our bodies beyond good judgment. Finally, remember that the Lord has counseled:
'For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.' (D&C 58:26)
"We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used." ("Q&A: Questions and Answers, " New Era, Oct. 1975, 34 NOTE: Scroll down to Bishop Peterson's question/answer section about cola drinks.)

Elder Sterling W. Sill, Conference Report, April 1965, General Priesthood Meeting, p.88
And one of the most damaging sins and one that gives greatest strength to our death instinct is the violation of that great revelation given 132 years ago called the Word of Wisdom. Some violators of this law tend to excuse themselves because it appears to be such a small thing. It seems like just a little disobedience, a little caffeine a little nicotine, a little friendly indulgence in alcohol. Yet these are the springboards to disease, broken homes, immorality, disloyalty to God, physical death, and the death of many of our eternal interests.

The pleasures of vice are mere illusions, tricks of the nervous system, and each time these tricks are played it is more and more difficult for the mind to tell the truth. Such deceptions come through drunkenness and narcoticism. In greater or less degree all nerve-affecting drugs produce it: nicotine, caffeine, opium, cocaine, and [all] the rest, strong or weak. Habitual use of any of these is a physical vice. A physical vice becomes a moral vice, and . . . to cultivate vice is o render our mind incapable of normal action. . . . One and all, these various drugs . . . tend to give the impression of a power or a pleasure . . . which we do not possess. . . . One and all their function is to force the nervous system to lie. One and all the result of their habitual use is to render the nervous system incapable of ever telling the truth. . . . Indulgence . . . destroys wisdom and virtue; it destroys faith and hope and love. . . . Whatever you do, count all the cost." (Elder Richard L. Evans, Conference Report, October 1969, Afternoon Meeting, p.66 - 67)

Elder John H. Taylor, Conference Report, October 1940, Afternoon Meeting, p.37
We have the same proposition in relation to the Word of Wisdom. We know the fundamental truth of the Word of Wisdom is based on a truth that cannot be eliminated or removed by any type of argument or reason. For instance, in coffee we have caffeine that is harmful, yet we sometimes reason that the same thing that makes coffee objectionable may not be so objectionable when it is used in some other way. It just indicates that we have not proven the thing so thoroughly that we have been able to hold fast to that which is good and make it a part of our lives.

Elder George F. Richards, Conference Report, October 1938, Afternoon Meeting, p.56
Some of our people quibble over the matter of tea and coffee, and say there is no mention of tea and coffee in the Word of Wisdom. I want to say to you that from the beginning of this Church, in the days of the Prophet Joseph, down to the present time, the leaders of this Church have interpreted that Word of Wisdom to include tea and coffee and all drinks that are habit-forming because of the caffeine and drugs they contain. We, as Latter-day Saints, who by our uplifted hands sustain the prophet in our day and time, President Grant, are under obligation to accept the interpretations that are made by him and by his predecessors [not to mention Gordon B. Hinckley and his interpretations that all Caffeine is bad) with respect to this matter.

President Rudger Clawson, Conference Report, October 1935, Third Day—Morning Meeting, p.107 - 108
And in respect to these things that are pronounced as being evil, he does not tell us in the revelation why there is evil in them, but time has determined this question. Scientific men have told us that in tobacco there is a deadly poison, and in tea there is a poison called tannin, in coffee a poison called caffeine. And we know that such must be the case, because these forbidden things are really and substantially narcotics, and a narcotic is something that is habit-forming. The things that are good for us are not habit-forming. We can take them up or put them down, but these badhabits very often and in most cases become masters of men; the habit is greater and stronger it appears than the individual.

Elder David A. Smith, Conference Report, April 1930, Afternoon Meeting, p.85
"Coffee and tea do more harm than good. Caffeine and tannic acid are the harmful agents in these beverages.

Howard W. Hunter, The Teachings of Howard W. Hunter, edited by Clyde J. Williams, p.105
Live the spirit of the Word of Wisdom. We complicate the simplicity of the Word of Wisdom. The Lord said don't drink tea, coffee, or use tobacco or liquor and that admonition is simple. But we confuse it by asking if cola drinks are against the Word of Wisdom. The 89th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants doesn't say anything about cola drinks, but we ask questions that go beyond the simplicity of the lesson that has been taught. We know that caffeine is taken out of coffee and used as an ingredient of cola drinks. It seems to me that if we really want to live the spirit of the law we probably wouldn't partake of that which had been taken from what we were told not to drink.

Improvement Era 1939
Cola drinks contain the drug, caffeine. For that reason, every argument used against coffee and tea, and some other arguments, may be used against cola drinks, and all other beverages containing caffeine, even in small amounts. They are determined habit formers, and may lead to the coffee and tea habit. They injure human health.
The following cola drinks are specifically mentioned by the sources below listed, as containing caffeine: Braser, Bromo-Kola, Shero, Cleo-Cola, Coca-Cola, Dandy Cola, D. C. Cola, Double Cola, Dr. Pepper, LaVida Cola, Lime Cola concentrate, Par-T-Pak Cola, Pepsi-Cola, Royal Crown (R-C) Cola, Western Cola, Wynola. (By John a. Widtsoe)
Whatever the source of caffeine may be, the physiological action of the drug is the same. (1944 John a. Widtsoe)

While not causing paralysis or death, small regular doses of caffeine are a very big challenge to the body. For instance, caffeine causes stomach temperature to rise 10 to 15 degrees, makes the stomach more acidic, and years of over-acidity can lead to stomach ulcers. Caffeine causes the heart to beat faster, lungs to work harder, and the blood vessels leading to the brain to narrow, while increasing the body's metabolic rate. Studies show that caffeine consumption is related to increased bladder and stomach cancers, elevated blood pressure, aggravated diabetes, and damaged stomach lining. It's technically classified as a poison.


The point...I couldn't care less if you drink caffeinated beverages or not. I myself drink them sometimes too. I admit it. That's all I want...if you drink them, just admit it...WofW = World of Warcraft...er whoops, I mean Word of "WISDOM"...and as the Lord said, it's not necessary that we be commanded in all things. You can still get a temple recommend, you won't be damned or lose the spirit any differently than you do for letting a little bird or crying baby distract you in sacrament like happened to President Kimball...just quit using false justifications that no leader has ever talked about it because they have...don't try to claim chocolate has caffeine, because it doesn't. Point out President Grant saying it wasn't a commandment, just a personal favor/recommendation, pass me another Rockstar and just plain admit to drinking Caffeine because we like it. :) You'll hear no judgment from me personally...but if you STILL remain in denial after all these quotes, there is no hope for you.

Uh...bytheway, pass me a Rockstar even if you are still in denial...I use them at work on occasion when tired so I don't fall asleep on the phones ANYMORE! :)
Currently playing:
Battlefield 2142 (DVD-ROM)
Release date: 17 October, 2006
Dave Garber
David Edward Garber

 
Wow!  Great collection of quotations and such.  Thanks!!!  If anyone asks me about this subject, I'll try to remember your blog here so that I can direct them to it.
 
Posted by Dave Garber on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 2:49 AM
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misty

 
No one ever seems to beleive me when I tell them the chemical in chocolate is slightly different from caffine... we learned about it in my 5th grade science class :) 

I swear you used to be one of those people...

As for caffinated drinks, I'm not entirely against them when they're useful, every drug has a purpose, just have to be careful to use it for the correct reason and not over-use it. 

 
Posted by misty on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 7:17 PM
[Reply to this
Mama Sarah
Sarah Patino

 
This is an AWESOME blog!!!
 
Posted by Mama Sarah on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 - 5:54 AM
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Mocking Bananah

 
Just wanted to point out that coffee and tea also contain theobromine in addition to caffeine. But it is wonderful that someone has actually taken the time to point out the differences in their effects.

As for apostle/prophet advisory against caffeine, that is something I definitely did not know about. Thanks for the information!
 
Posted by Mocking Bananah on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 12:10 AM
[Reply to this
Tidejwe Dezod (Jon)

 
Tis true...among many other chemicals they contain that aren't really good for us either. :) I think most of it is still left up as a word of wisdom...a promise with rewards, but not a COMMANDMENT. It's best if we avoid all other bad stuff to our bodies too, but only a few things are currently ENFORCED.
 
Posted by Tidejwe Dezod (Jon) on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 7:44 AM
[Reply to this
Mocking Bananah

 
True this is; very few things are “enforced” (e.g. having Church level punishments) from the Word of Wisdom. While not eating all my veggies in season doesn’t keep me from receiving my temple recommend, I perhaps do suffer the consequence of “lesser” health. (Though now that I mention that, I am irrevocably reminded, that one of the questions in the temple recommend interview does ask if one keeps the word of wisdom…)

But that’s the trip. It is definitely an "if-then" clause with real, palpable consequences to one’s health, good or bad in relationship to how one applies it.

Honestly, I consider things not specifically spoken of in the Word of Wisdom issues to be decided by the individual, but not enforced on others. These are extra things that can only apply to our own convictions and lifestyles. Even my husband has said that because he is not able to work a "normal" schedule and thus go to bed early and rise early, energy drinks with caffeine are all he has to sustain him during the grave yard. So caffeine is not something that we're going to be cutting from his diet any time soon.

But of course, in all consumables, prudence should always overcome gluttony because even water can become a poison if you ingest too much of it.

****

“With all the knowledge we have of perhaps harmful additives in much of the food we buy today, and our knowledge of caffeine in soft drinks and chocolate, and lots of other unhealthful substances in food products, how does one live the Word of Wisdom in 1971? Can one really live it fully?”

Lindsay R. Curtis and Winnifred Jardine, “Q&A: Questions and Answers,” New Era, Feb. 1971, 6–7

Answer/Doctor Lindsay R. Curtis

May I refer all members to section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants to read and reread. We have been admonished repeatedly by our General Authorities to leave this section as it is, neither adding to it, as many food faddists are inclined to do, nor interpreting it so liberally that it loses all significance.

In reference to the question, it is true that caffeine is a stimulant, and an unnecessary stimulant for constant consumption. But it is a very valuable drug when it is used by physicians. Without it, many of our medicines would fail to relieve our headaches, our discomforts due to colds and injuries, and many other conditions.

Chocolate contains theobromine, which in great amounts could cause untoward results; yet theobromine is a valuable medicine in its proper place.

Some substances used for preservation of foods could be undesirable if taken in excessive amounts. But how much more dangerous would be spoiled food? The amount used to prevent spoilage is carefully regulated by law and common sense to avoid any poisonous effects.

Let us use good judgment. If we are still uncertain about certain products and feel keenly about it, let us make it a matter of prayer and fasting. We will find the proper interpretation—for us. But we should not feel that this is the answer for everyone else.

We could speculate as to what the Lord might say in a 1971 version of the Word of Wisdom, but he hasn’t seen fit to elaborate on the original revelation. And he doesn’t need to. We’ve been given the basic guidelines; our bodies are holy tabernacles and we are to use wisdom and all the good judgment we possess in caring for them. In that sense, we can live the Word of Wisdom as fully now as when it was given in 1833.
 
Posted by Mocking Bananah on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 1:41 AM
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Tidejwe Dezod (Jon)

 
Thank you for that response, I will inevitably incorporate it into my saved file on the matter sometime. I believe it is a perfect explanation of how we should treat it.
 
Posted by Tidejwe Dezod (Jon) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 - 3:32 AM
[Reply to this
Mocking Bananah

 
You're welcome. :)

And again, thank you for your blog on the matter too. Hopefully, it will open the eyes of some faddists.
 
Posted by Mocking Bananah on Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 4:12 AM
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