This is a longer version of an artist-on-artist interview I did for www.drownedinsound.com
Catherine AD meets
Tori Amos
Waiting in the lobby of the designated
Kensington hotel, the concierge asks me again if there's anyone they
can call. The interviews are running late and I am conspicuously out
of place amidst the beige on beige. It's like sitting in a room made
of mashed potato. Which only serves to make me more hungry. I surreptitiously
sneak bites from a Crunchie from my bag - I haven't eaten lunch yet
and I don't want to pass out mid-interview. I’m trying not to get
chocolatey crumbs all over The Beige but then think I might need to
follow the crumb trail later to find my way out of the neutral labyrinth
of endless, uniformly buff corridors... Finally the PR arrives to take
me upstairs and the Sunday Times photographer is busy setting up shots
in the adjoining room with one scary-ass freakishly-real looking baby-doll
as a mooted prop. There is more beige. I am feeling like I might vomit
up a chocolatey mess any moment. And then, suddenly, there is Tori Amos.
Resplendently red and orange, and immediately intuiting how out-of-place
I feel here.
"You are very artistic
- you are the most artistic person I've
met.. I've had the BBC here this morning and trust me, it's a very different
look... this is gorgeous...you are a walking art piece - that's what
you are - it does show and that is a positive thing and it's got to
make you feel good - that's who you are and you are doing the right
job"
And this is Tori: generous, intuitive,
warm and welcoming. Putting you at ease with her languid, almost meditative,
way of talking, unravelling each answer with nothing of the polished
PR babble we have come to expect from today's generation of stars. We
decide to up sticks from the (beige) sofa and armchairs and both end
up perched on the huge windowsill that overlooks Kensington Gardens
and the gathering crowds of lunchtime picnickers and Princess Diana
pilgrims. I enquire about how she's feeling after having to postpone
her show two days previously, only to find myself in the unexpected
position of discussing the joys of food poisoning with Tori Amos...
We try to figure out the finer points of the acoustics of the room and
where the best position for the dictaphone might be - both
laughing that you can never escape the producer and the musician in
you. Perched on a book, atop wood for the best resonance is the solution
decided upon and so I dive in...
---
CAD: The new record is called
Abnormally Attracted to Sin. Are there any particular ones you’re
attracted to more than others? Could you expound upon the title?
– obviously it’s a quotation from some
Guys & Dolls dialogue...
TA: I’m sort of attracted to… figuring
out why people are attracted to what they are... because… you know,
I have a sister that’s a doctor, and sometimes she’ll talk to me
about… “This is not an emotional conversation – there’s
something within the body and the brain that’s attracting somebody
to something.” It’s this whole [Lacuna, implying Emotion, the
Unknown human element, etc.] “Versus Genetics and Sociology question”,
and I’m fascinated by... why people choose a self-destructive path.
CAD: And so that’s being drawn
to the Dark Side as it were? That it’s maybe not a choice, but perhaps
it’s something genetically inbuilt, or predisposed?
TA: Well, I don’t know. I think we’re
all drawn to [it]. There’s so many answers in the dark, but it doesn’t
have to be malevolent; it can be a place where Shadow exists
[the Jungian Shadow, presumably], and you find… you bring your
candle, and you bring your flashlight with you, and you try to find
consciousness in the unconscious. I kinda see the darkness as the unconscious;
a metaphor. It doesn’t have to be about… again, violent behaviour
towards another creature – it doesn’t have to be about harm –
and I’ve always sort of seen a different definition of Lucifer, the
Light-bringer, as… it’s a tough job to hold, but a consciousness
that holds all of that – of Humanity – that we don’t collect
into ourselves, the sides of ourselves that we don’t claim; the things
we do, how we manipulate, that we kind of lie to ourselves. Because,
you know, nobody wants to really think – most people anyway that are
sort of walking my line, that I am going to intentionally belittle somebody
but it's sometimes from friends... it’s sometimes the people we pull
into our circle, [when] they don’t say “God, you did a great job
today", or "Congratulations or I support you or those things”.
[Instead] they leave you with very little, so you start to crave…
and you’re attracted to their acceptance, approval, support… that
they Just-Never-Give-You, and the way they keep you there is by withholding
it. And so in ‘Ophelia’ [a track from the new album] which
is the classic song, it's like, “Why would you want people like that
in your life”?
CAD: So, in a way, seeking approval
from those who withhold it most, rather than accepting and embracing
the approval that we already have in our
lives…?
TA: That’s right – and why aren’t
we attracted to people who want to support us and who like us? Instead
of being attracted to people who don’t see our light? Thinking, “Oh
God, if I can turn this person around, then I must be onto something
here…””
CAD: It’s a
really good question! Very personally resonant as well as a musician…
But on the other side of that, I wanted to talk about the single
‘Welcome to England’ which seems to me in some ways to be an ode
to your husband, as well as – obviously
– about England and estrangement. I wondered whether it’s harder
for you than it was to write what you might call
“a positive lovesong”, than the songs from
Boys for Pele, like ‘Putting the Damage On’
or ‘Hey Jupiter’?
TA: Well, I think…… to be positive
about a man, and yet ambivalent about a place, was the desired goal
for ‘Welcome to England’, because I really wanted the story to be
about a woman who left her life, and her family, and
her job, to follow her love – to follow her heart. It could be
leaving North Carolina to move to New York – it could be anything
– or leaving Manchester to come to London. Then you come to realize
that His world is becoming Your world, and yet maybe you’ve taken
on so much of His world… but it isn’t Your world, and you have to
retain yourself in it. And she just lost that. Somehow. She lost parts
of herself – whether she should have gone back more, or whether she…
you know, sometimes when you leave a place, you cut those cords, and
you think “Okay, fresh start – roll my sleeves up…” and yet…
there was something, or maybe many things, that you didn’t really
want to leave behind. That you do begin to miss. Sometimes it’s the
mountains. Sometimes it’s the earth. And I think that ultimately –
in this story she’s an American, and Yes, the parallels are very close
– but it could be… I know so many people who’ve left, especially
in the last 2 years because of jobs, and getting work. One of them had
work [that was] going somewhere, that they'd had to leave. One of them
has had to let go to move with the other, and so, “how to not lose
yourself, when you don’t fit into your lover’s world” [is the
message] – maybe that’s a good thing, because I don't think you
necessarily should.
CAD: There seems to be a lot of
songs on the record about this idea of Giving
– this almost quasi-vampiric relationship, maybe. Especially in the
first song, ‘Give’-
TA: Yes...
CAD: ...And all the mothers 'giving'
on the record too... and so I wondered if maybe you saw your songs in
that way? There were a lot of songs on this record that strongly suggested
this idea of “giving” through the songs, and using them as a way
to connect to people, and as a way to love. I can’t remember the exact
lines, but you say something like:
“some people give blood / I give love”. Could you elaborate
on that idea?
TA: Well, I guess it’s the polar
opposite of the vampire concept, where you don’t need to take from
somebody, but… there’s a fine line in giving, and… being a watercolour
that just runs off a canvas, where you give… so much that you
don’t allow people to give back. Sometimes, there’s a fear
of Receiving, because… that’s a strange place to put yourself in,
but I’ve seen this and walked into this at different points in my
life, where I’ve said “I don’t need anything from anybody”,
then when you do receive something from somebody, it’s a lovely
gift… but in being the only giver sometimes, you take away the other
person’s opportunity to want to offer something up of themselves as
well; and so, there’s a fine line. How far do you take this? There’s
a danger element to it, like anything that can be taken too far. But
I think that it was a really sexy idea, I thought, that to survive a
time now [when] nothing’s abundant, everything is bleak, everybody’s
pennypinching, that the way to survive destruction is to “out-create”
it, so I think the idea was when everybody wants to take, “No,
don’t don't try to take – you give”.
CAD: So, it’s about trying to
reverse the order of things? To me, hearing you talk about that, it’s
a very nice link on to the other idea that runs so strongly throughout
the new album, of Motherhood, especially on
‘Maybe California’. How has motherhood has impacted not only your
relationship with music, but also your life, and your "job"
as a musician and a creator. How has that changed?
TA: I think as Tash gets older –
she’s 8 now – she’s got to a place where she has her own ideas,
and they’re very exciting and independent of mine and her Dad's. She’s
in a new phase now, and I’m having to grow with it. I think… because
she’s more independent, I’ve been able to give more attention to
The Art, in the last few years. And so, I’m changed forever, being
a Mom, because I think – my body changed, first of all, and I could
see what a woman’s body can do… and when I was at my biggest, I
think I was most freed of all those demons – there were so many! They
just got kicked out of my being… maybe with her feet! [both laugh]
Even though she was a Caesarean birth, for medical reasons… I believe
that… by accepting my physicality, that was a huge shift… for me,
as a Creator, and as a Woman, and there’s more of a… a sensuality
I think in some ways, to the work… that is there, where[as] the work
prior to Tash, has other elements that you can only have before
you’ve carried life… I can’t… I don’t know that consciousness
anymore, because once your body takes on another person, you can’t
be a maiden anymore.
CAD: There is no going back is there?
TA: There’s no going back. You can’t
know that emptiness anymore – and I don’t mean “emptiness” as
a negative, I mean: you’ve been filled with another creature, and
so… always & forever, that cord is real, and it’s pulling at
you, and your consciousness shifts. The question is: how do you walk
the line of Mother and Woman… independent of Mother, and that’s
a challenge because I think some mothers, they can look back, and as
much as they love their children… there’s something very sensual
when your body’s your own.
CAD: Something that seemed to come
through in the story of ‘Maybe California’
is this kind of tension about a woman being driven to such a point where
she wants to leave her children, she wants to leave the
world even… and the responsibilities... and the damage she
could do if she did chose to take that route, and [so] the question
of 'Giving' comes up again.
TA: It keeps coming up... I mean..
there’s a selfishness, and there’s a battle of selfishness, and
a battle between… not selflessness… but the question of “what
is self”. If you’re a Mother-Creator, then self has to include the
Other. “Mother” includes the word “Other”, and… I don’t
think I really realized that until recently. I mean it’s staring at
us in the face. Whereas “Woman”… the word “Man” is included
– and “Wo” is included… [unclear whether
Tori means “Woe” or “Whoa”
here...] it’s a different kind of Other. I think “Mother”
can embrace what it took to get her there, which is sexuality.
CAD:...which is quite a radical
way of thinking – this idea of sexualizing the mother, or even being
a sexualized woman after you’ve given birth, or whilst you’re pregnant
even, is taboo, isn’t it?
TA: It is taboo. And I think,
with the new record, and the artwork, it’s very much about the idea
of erotic spirituality. You know, I think when we were creating the
photographs, they were being created while the music was playing, and
the conversation… was very much with an Other, and the songs themselves,
and what was behind that… and I think… sometimes as Mothers, you’re
kind of amputated from the idea of the “Erotic”. Because, just the
idea that “that woman that is holding that whip” [say], the idea
that in two hours that woman can be sitting down, at a Haagen-Dazs,
or (Tasha’s favourite) is Gladstone’s in the States, where they
make the little ice-cream. But, the truth of the matter is that it depends
on the temple – the temple of the Holy Spirit – and inside of that
whip, and what's on the other side of that whip because that’s really
metaphorical. To me, the pictures – the handcuffs, the whip – it’s
very much about a mental-emotional conversation with… herself, or
with this… Lover.
CAD: So, it’s saying that we must
tend to ourselves as Women in order to be good mothers, to retain our
integrity?
TA: You have to do both - there’s
a balance. It really is about a balance, and when you let the woman
go, then sometimes you find as the children are growing up, that we
go back to ‘Welcome to England’ [the song] – you're that woman
again – who, if you don’t give to yourself, but you are giving to
everybody else, that you turn around, and you recognize but "I
have nobody to give to anymore, and i haven't nurtured myself while
I've been nurturing everybody else".
CAD: Thinking about this idea of
the Mother figure, how has your relationship with your fans changed
over the last 10 records in terms of your role for them? Do you see
that as another kind of Giving?”
TA: Well, they’re changing too. There
are so many different people, who have different relationships with
the songs themselves… because the songs, when they get put into different
compartments, they rebel, because they mean different things to different
people. And they’re all Media [people] right now. It’s so amazing
to me, when people are looking at these photographs, and [I get] such
opposite reactions to them. And for me, it’s very telling… about
them
CAD: It’s like a Rorschach test…
TA: Well yes, one woman saw the whip
shot, and said to me, “How can you be holding a whip?...”. It’s
as if – as one of my favourite people in the world, Karen Binns, said
– unless you are topshelf on a magazine, being a cliché, everything
that is so obvious – unless it’s that – [this woman who objected]
couldn’t understand. It was the men who understood… And it’s
the men – gay or straight, both – who understand that. It’s a
much more dangerous line, an involvement, to not just being going
through the motions but to have the conversation before the tools are
implemented, because the tools are only just… the tools; it’s the
user behind them. And the fact that there’s compassion… and how
are you using them?
CAD: I haven’t seen these images
yet, so that’s probably a whole new
interview…!
TA: I don’t think they’re meant
to hurt! It depends on the user. It’s not necessarily about that!
Some people are able to use these things as poetry, as metaphors.
CAD: You’ve always been very interested
in that. The visual side of your work has always been about challenging
people’s concept of “What Woman Is”
and “What Mother Is”
TA: That’s right, and what is Sacred,
what is Profane…
CAD: Going back to the
Boys for Pele cover… [Tori with a gun, on her porch, showing
a lot of leg; and on the back cover, suckling a pig]
TA: That’s right, and the idea that
why should Elegance, Seduction, and Eroticism be… closed to Mothers,
who work very hard, and then at the end of the day lose their husband
to fantasy images on the computer.
CAD: We’re always stifling ourselves,
and putting ourselves into boxes…
[alluding to Tori’s early comment, but also the cover of
Little Earthquakes with Tori photographed in a
wooden box]
TA: ...and pushing them to find it
somewhere else… because we go back to [the idea of] Mother and Other,
and the responsibility of that [relationship implied by the one word
containing the other]. It’s a huge responsibility, and the woman
in ‘Maybe California’ can't bear it anymore. That came from real
stories from women, at the end of their ropes, who came to me and stopped
me, over the last year, and told me about their lovers or husbands losing
their jobs, and they hadn’t, and then everything was deteriorating…
because the male is so defined by being a Provider, and so when they
couldn’t do that anymore, they couldn’t provide in the bedroom anymore,
and so the whole relationship would break down. And one particular woman
said, “if I take myself out of the equation, then they’d have to
give him a job… and if I could take myself out, it would all be okay…
and he would find someone else again” – and you’re watching the
mind turning, and you have to say “Stop! In order to give so much,
you’re destroying. In order to give, and give yourself away, you’re
taking.” So that was what that was about.
CAD: You’ve long fought against
certain sections the Church, and it's propensity to push guilt or shame
on women and their sexuality, and I guess this follows on from what
you’re saying… Do you think that things have got better in the last
ten years?
TA: I think with Prop. 8 [Californian
legislation that outlaws same sex marriage] it’s really up in
everyone’s face. With that you push people back into secrecy. Probably
the thing staring in everybody’s face – the biggest crime – is
the human slave trade; woman and children. Yes, there are men,
agreed – but it’s mostly women and then young children, and you
think… what pushes us, in a society, to needing a slave-trade? The
worker bee (in me) goes back to the hive, to the queen bee, who are
the songs. I’d say I don’t understand. How can we fill ourselves,
and our desires, with people in the professional sexual trade. Some
people are driven to that, but some choose that – I know some
– and it’s not for me to judge why, and they’re not just there
for the money. Who made me God, to figure this out? I’m not talking
[with this record, and it’s artwork] about a society that’s not
consenting. What I’m really questioning is that the sexual slave trade
that is so expansive, and everywhere that the secrecy to sexuality…
Clearly, if we’re in a free society, what are we attracted to? Having
power over another human, that has no power?
CAD: Very possibly…
TA: And that’s what I think – [with]
Abnormally Attracted to Sin [as a title] – you get to decide what
the stories being told, with the songs, and the visualettes, and the
pictures, what they represent. But, not for one minute do I believe
that Tori [the character] is in the sexual slave trade and there because
she doesn’t want to be. She’s choosing to be there for some kind
of reason, and I think… the whole thing just baffles me, and so –
when you ask me “Is sexuality an issue?” – well, when the biggest
crime we have is sexual abuse, with the trading of human… flesh.
Then, clearly, there’s a big problem.
CAD: That leads me on to my final
question. Does it concern you with this new crop of female
pop artists that you see coming through, that there’s very little
space for saying anything of value or having a voice to talk critically about femininity? It seems to me that in too many cases it's just a simulacra of quirkiness and kookiness but in fact it’s all so packaged and sanitized...
TA: Well, I don’t get concerned about
that, because I think that… voices will demand to be heard. When the
Muse grabs you by the hand, you know, you serve the creative force.
The songs are independent of me, and yet we’re intertwined. (You know
how it is! It's a very strange thing). The fact that the public enjoys
all kinds of entertainment and expression… that has to be respected.
And then there are those of us who talk about other things, and when
you want to have another kind of conversation. There are those of us
who want to sit down with that… wine that’s been aged a bit…rather
than wine from, you know, 2006. There’s always room for a unique perspective
But sometimes if you’re one of those artists, the truth is, you have
to work really hard to be heard and you can’t stop. You have to keep
fighting and you can’t say “Oh, the world seems to want this kind
of music, so they don’t want me.” Well you just can't. You have
to keep going.
CAD: So, you’re hopeful there
will be another generation…? Pushing through…
TA: There must be! There has
to be. Otherwise… we’re doomed.
CAD: Lastly, the impact of
iTunes, and the way people are consuming songs in individual packages…does
that worry you when you've spent such a lot of time and effort putting
together this conceptual package with the
visualettes?
TA: I can’t spout off about control…I
know i am a control freak. Doug Morris told me to go and be a great
one! The thing is - you can’t fight the Patriarchy - I use that term
for a controlling system that doesn’t open itself up to other new
ways of solving issues. How can I demand the public consumes it the
way I've laid it out? It exists. I have a whole installation there –
Visual-Sonic; it’s there – and some people will just come along
for the post-show party, but that’s okay…
-----------
Abnormally Attracted to Sin
is out now on Island Records. The deluxe edition of the album
features a bonus DVD containing 16 “visualettes” directed by Christian
Lamb.
