Right on Mary! It couldn't have been said more clearly and succinct. Just easy enough for any bonehead to understand. That list of comments is baffeling to me. I mean, I'M offended! It makes me wonder: what if someone came up to me and said, "you're the best male bassist I've heard", or "you play circles around so many girls". Comments like that seem completely ridiculous and out-to-lunch. But the reason they are particularly strange is because they cross the social lines that we all have been defined by. Rather, the lines that attempt to define us. My point is the comments you listed SHOULD also seem ridiculous to EVERYONE, not just women.

Let's face it, most people are idiots. They see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear and are encased by self-applied limitations.

Thanks for speaking your mind this time.
 

Hi there. First of all I would like to apologize for offending you. I should have replaced the word "girl" with the word "person". While I feel strangely honored(?) to have been the impetus for this discussion, I also feel like a total shitheel and you have every right to think of me as just another idiot who doesn't think before he talks.

However, I would like to take a moment to clarify: I am a straight male. I tend to be more attracted to females who are musically inclined than those who are not. When I say there is nothing hotter than a girl playing music, I am not comparing you to a guy playing music - I'm comparing you to a <span style="font-style: italic;">girl </span>who is <span style="font-style: italic;">not playing music</span>. I was commenting on your hotness, not the quality of your work. In fact I didn't even call the music <span style="font-style: italic;">good</span>, I called it "fucked up". I love your tunes and I really enjoyed seeing you play with Trio Convusant, but did not in any way wish to imply that I think you are talented "for a girl". You are talented, period. And - you know - if being into women who are talented over women who are not makes me an asshole, so be it.

Anyway, this is an issue that needs to be discussed and I'm glad I helped bring it out into the open. I hope you aren't mad at me, but you have every right to be pissed at the dumbasses who think girls can't play guitar.


 

ok, maybe you are not as bad as other idiots out there... but you are still not getting that you are putting female musicians into a different category than just musicians by saying "there is nothing hotter than a girl playing music"... it sounds like it doesn't matter if the music is good or not as long as it's a girl playing music, you think she's hot...
why can't you just listen to the music without turning us into some kind of sexual object...?
why can't mary be a kick ass guitarist who happens to be a girl...?
why couldn't you just say mary was great without trying to be a "guy"...?

and what's up with this calling what we do "fucked up" music...?
 

"why couldn't you just say mary was great without trying to be a "guy"...?"

That's where the idiot part comes in. It was just my way of saying "gosh yer perty. ma'am". Geez.

And you're right, I am putting female musicians into a different category than male musicians, but talent is not a factor in those categories. What is a factor is my tendency to think that a female musician is cuter than a male musician, that's all. That was my original point. It goes both ways as well. I know plenty of women who think guys who play music are much more appealing than guys who don't. They aren't comparing those guys to girls who play music, they just think the guys who do are hot.

I'm sorry if I implied that the quality of the music doesn't matter, because it really does. If a woman's music is bad, I don't pretend I like it. I love bands like OOIOO and Melt Banana not because of female band members, but because they rock and are totally bizarre.

Also, when I call someones music "fucked up" I mean it as a sincere compliment. "Experimental" is a better word, and I really do love that kind of music. I wouldn't have sought out Mary and Trevor on myspace if I didn't.

Anyway, I'll probably not be able to explain my way out of being seen as a sexist jerk, but just keep in mind the wording of my original comment and hear it for what it is without applying your own imaginary subtext. Lets not forget what Trevor said...."most people hear what they want to hear..."

 

OK, first off not anyone is an idiot and we should be thankful that we have an audience for our ‘fucked-up’ music here in NYC.

Also, as far as putting ___ musicians into a different category goes. It’s a reality and it does not matter if it’s a major label or some pretentious artsy label. People are going to brand by gender, race or religion and work that angle in their favor.

Regards,

Lou (Italian-American working class boy textuarist)
 

Some people definitely are idiots, but that has nothing to do with not being thankful for having an audience-- I am extremely thankful for any audience I might have.

And as far as putting ____ musicians in a different category being "a reality", it doesn't have to be and the reason I posted this blog was to try to start a dialogue to point out the ways in which people should change their attitudes, or atleast make people aware of how their comments affect others. This isn't some sort of a joke; this is something which I have been dealing with my whole life and which has affected me profoundly.
 

First of all I have to say that I stumbled into this imbroglio by accident. I was looking for intel on your new Skirl cd (they do a terrible job of updating their site) when I saw this. I understand your discomfort over Sgt. Grumbles' comments, however well-intentioned. It is hard for me to take Sgt. Grumbles seriously as it sounds like the name of a large, overweight, house cat. But what he said certainly got your and some of your chums' dander up.
Seriously, so what to do? After reading the various posts, I tried thinking of female jazz guitarists, if only for the sake of making a tally. Honestly, I could only think of the late Emily Remler and you.There was an African- American woman who used to play with the vibist Khan Jamal in Philly back in the day, but I can't remember her name. Even in rock there haven't been many serious women players- Sleater-Kinney, Kaki King, Liz Phair, and Sheryl Crow, and the latter two are not much about facility.
So how to change this? Exposure, example, empowerment, and education. The first two are hard-I don't need to tell you that jazz isn't particularly lucrative, and there aren't too many role models for young women players to emulate. Empowerment is curious, as I don't see many reasons why women aren't playing guitar in greater numbers. My own daughter started playing a few years ago and I dangled the idea of going electric when she picked up the fundamentals- no interest at all, and eventually she stopped playing entirely.
Solutions? Nicer clubs, for one thing. I could never get my wife to go to the Knitting Factory (both of them) because they were so damn skanky. The Firehouse 12 club in New Haven seems like a move in the right direction, and I know you guys already play there.
In terms of education, what about Wesleyan? Some kind of summer program for young women guitarists? Do like Anthony Braxton did there- create a program for like-minded musicians. Or find some grant money and start your own thing in Brooklyn.
The important thing is to be proactive and not let people like Sgt. Grumbles' get to you. You'll be around long after him. BTW, I know your playing from Ted Reichman and Taylor Ho Bynum and its' way good.
 

I just found this thread while shamelessly adding friends to my band's myspace. It made me throw up, and that's definitely NOT sweet.

-scott
 

Mary- you shouldn't be viewed as distinct from all other guitar players because you're a woman. Ideally, your work should be taken purely on its own terms.

However, maybe a little perspective.....first of all, these were people who came out to your show and enjoyed what you played. You may not have liked being singled out for being a "great female musician" and the like but you have to understand that you ARE a pioneer, relatively speaking, because of the general lack of female musicians in jazz and improvised music. So I don't mean to be glib but, you're just going to have to deal with people's surprise/shock because on one level, it's perfectly understandable why they should be surprised to see you on stage. You ARE a novelty--- that doesn't mean you shouldn't be treated with respect, but try to sympathize with why someone would find it unusual rather than just impute all kinds of nefarious sexist motives to this.

Also when you say "people wonder why there aren't more women playing this music"-...indeed, why AREN'T there aren't more women playing this music???......My two cents-- maybe a better target for your rant would be the social and commercial forces that influence women to pursue directions in line with socially acceptable and even retrograde definitions of what it means to be female in this society???

I don't assume for a minute that the days of discrimination against female musicians by male musicians and people in the music business are over, but it seems like an equal if not greater problem today is that-- in spite of the progress this country has made with respect to women entering the professions, there's still TONS of marketing and social conditioning going on which encourages girls to do "girly" things and be a girly girl, from Barbie to The Bachelor to more subtle things, like the behavior of female news anchors vs. male news anchors, like the college majors women are passively steered into (English lit, education, etc.), like the way Hillary "must be" to be electable. This in my mind is the stuff that really holds back women from doing things like music these days. The whole society is complicit in this too. You can blame men and male elites for the majority of it, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but where are the women protesting at networks for the reality shows like The Bachelor that make them look like silly little girls?
 

Thanks Gerard (and everyone else) for taking the time to comment on this subject. I should point out that dealing with people's sexist comments-- and many ARE outright sexist-- is only part of what has been difficult about being a female musician. There is also the reality of certain people not taking me seriously, which was a huge problem especially as I was first learning the instrument. But that's a whole other can of worms that I don't feel like getting into at the moment (maybe I will at some point). And obviously these people are in the minority. But I do have lots of mindblowing stories.

And yes I agree that the way to fight this is just by doing. The more women who play this kind of music, the less unusual it will seem. Fortunately, it's already moving in that direction.

Also: I don't intend for this to be some sort of sob story. Most people are awesome and the positive experiences outweigh the bad by far. I'm just pointing out the realities I deal with.
-Mary
 

Some of the most alienating insults are meant as compliments. I had no sense of this until my first trip to Europe to perform, where the fact that I was Jewish was a big subject of fascination for a lot of German and Scandanavian folks. They were very interested in Jewish culture, and had romanticized it into a kind of exoticism, like, "oh cool! the real jews are here to do their quaint happy sad-sounding songs and dances. Some of them even have big noses!" (I'm paraphrasing a little...) I was stunned. Growing up in the Virginia suburbs in the 70's and 80's, any time non-Jews called attention to my semitic background it was in order to ridicule me or oppress me. So the euros thought they were being complimentary. They LIKED me. But their "like" reduced me to a folkloric cliche, and they were dissapointed to find I was more complex than that. They were massively confused... and dissapointed to find I didn't keep kosher or pray before meals.

Sometimes sexism works this way too. Male creative music fans may think they're being complementary when they celebrate a woman's sexuality and musicianship in the same phrase, but it's a very unevolved behavior. Firesign Theater had a sketch on one of there records that made fun of white peoples' fetishizing of african-americans. "Spades are groovy," they proclaimed. Sound familiar?
 

I don't know exactly what you've experienced and all I see is the quotes themselves and not the tone or attitude they were inflected with. Again, I don't mean to be glib or tell you how you should process your own experience. I just try in everything to see beyond the symptoms and find the roots, or diagnose the disease if you will. Sexist comments are symptomatic of something much deeper, a social context which still to this day has a lot of active and passive conditioning for behavior in accordance with acceptable gender roles.

I liked dollhouses and miniatures when I was a kid--- to my Grandma this was a red flag that I must be gay. Silliness like this goes on all the time. How to stop it- ? It's so cliche but we can only stop it one person at a time. You should be proud though that you are on the frontlines, and that whereas many can only engage people's assumptions and prejudices through conversation, what you do is much more powerful---- exploding myths and stereotypes by your performance and very presence on the bandstand.
 

I love it when right-wing types rant on and on about misandry (even though cultural standards/stereotypes for one gender obviously affect the other) when women are still definitely treated as a social minority, especially in the Southeastern and Midwestern portions of this country. Even in a culture much more conservative than ours, say China, it seems that women are on more equal social/economic footing with men in many ways, partly because not that many couples marry right away (for financial reasons oftentimes) and in that culture, women obviously can't really be stuck as stay-at-home babymakers. There's still economic inequality between genders (being that men still make more money than women on average) but in China, women are supposed to supposed to pursue careers and not learn to be "homemakers" or some nonsense like that.

By the way, you two are some of the best Caucasian songwriters/musicians I've ever heard!
 

It's kind of like when Living Colour's "Cult of Personality" first hit the airwaves. The comment that I generally overheard was, "Wow... this song is really good.... AND THEY'RE BLACK!"
 

Hey Mary,

Believe it or not, this has happened to me. (OK, readers who know me can stop laughing right now, that means you, Parker.) In my case it was a gay fan in San Francisco who says he is a "bear hunter," which means he is attracted to big-boned men with beards, of which I was one at the time, bearded that is. His comments were something along the lines of being willing to listen to crazy music for a chance to spend time with me.

That said, once in 30 years is not exactly harassment. Certainly must be a drag to deal with in constantly, I mean you and other women in music, not me, since I don't.

all the best,

Scott
 

I'm glad people play guitar. I'm glad men play because, as a man, I have someone to relate to and empathize with on that level. I'm glad women play because I better understand them on that level when they do. I can only play music as a man, so someone playing music as a woman teaches me something about life that I otherwise may not have known. I'm glad men and women are different. I'm unhappy when we abuse each other based on that difference. But the difference is beautiful. I hope to better understand this world and its inhabitants by hearing more women and men who will express themselves through whichever instrument in whichever genre. Let's weave ourselves together into one big quilt. Because it's winter here now and I'm cold and need all of you.

I appreciate everyone here who commented. I learned a lot today. Even things about New York, where I've never been. As a Pacific musician, I'm excited when I come into contact with and begin to understand in small ways an Atlantic musician, discovering and enjoying how we're the same and where we're different, which I believe will expand my capacity for love.
 

I DO TOO UPDATE THE SKIRL SITE!!
 

Well said , Mary and congratulationsfor your work!!!
 

Yea, I'm so sick of people coming up to ME and saying things like, "You're the best male guitarist I've heard- EVER!".

OR
"I hope you're not offended by this, but I've just never seen a dude play guitar like that!"
Just kidding around.
:P

It seems to me like your trying to tackle a huge issue here. A small aspect being gender preconceptions involving music. But prejudice exists in many aspects of life everywhere in the world. Whites can't dance, blacks can't ski, orientals can't drive, girls play with Barbie, boys play with Tonka. But nobody is saying you can't play music. Eminem probably got sick of hearing, "Your a great white rapper", but it doesn't stop him. Annie Buckley had it rough, and things have become more liberal since her day. But that was then, and this is now.


I personally don't think there was anything insulting with sgt whoever's comment. Other than possibly the wording, and I pray that it was not a one liner with just that. But it broke down to him having an attraction to females (girl?) who play good (fucked up?) music. Thats sorta like a female being attracted to male firefighters, or artists, or anything. But it was a compliment on top of a compliment, as I would see it. But I see how it was percieved on both ends, and this is most likely basic miscommunication.


So good luck trying to inform the masses that their way of thinking is flawed. Changing your views is something done best individually.


Oh, by the way Mary, I just heard your music for the first time just now. Remarkable work! Always good to browse upon a masterpiece while searching myspace music. Keep up the good work.

 

RIGHT ON!!!!!
RACISM AND SEXISM IS RAMPANT IN THIS COUNTRY. WHAT A SHAME. EVEN WHEN TRYING TO PAY A COMPLIMENT, THE RACISM AND SEXISM COMES OUT. WHAT A PITY. LISTEN TO THE MUSIC PEOPLE!!!!!!. HOW CAN THE COLOR OR GENDER OF THE INSTRUMENT MATTER? IT NEVER CEASES TO AMAZE ME.

THE FACT THAT YOU EVEN HAVE TO POST THIS IS SAD, BUT I GIVE YOU A LOT OF CREDIT FOR DOING SO. REMINDS ME OF A BARTENDER WHO ONCE TOLD ME, WHEN DISCUSSING JAZZ CLUBS, THAT SHE DIDN'T LIKE WORKING CERTAIN CLUBS, BECAUSE MOST OF THE CUSTOMERS WERE ITALIANS FROM BROOKLYN LOLOL. I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT SHE WAS THINKING. I'M AS "ITALIAN FROM BROOKLYN" AS IT GETS. STEREOTYPING IS THE WORST FORM OF PREJUDICE, NO MATTER WHAT IT IS BASED ON,.


OH WELL, CHANGE TAKES FOREVER. THE MASSES ARE ASSES. GO WITH THE FLOW AND ROLL WITH THE PUNCHES. JUST KEEP CREATING YOUR GREAT MUSIC.
I LOVE IT!!!! YOU ARE TRUE ARTISTS!!!!
 

we are all brothers and sisters. Full stop. Increase the peace sisters.

 

Glad you said this. Anything that serves to limit an individual by putting them into any given identity box against their will is, quite frankly, shitty.


I've also encountered folks who are interested in a person *because* they are a woman, or of a different ethnicity/race. I'm not sure if that also falls within the realm of sexism and racism, respectively, but it sure is an odd way of thinking.

 

OK. I know this is way late, but I just found it. I agree with Mary that I don't like to be identified as a FEMALE musician, and I have had comments from people that made me incredibly self-conscious about being female and on a stage. In response to hearing too many people say that there aren't many women involved in improvised music or that they have difficulty finding them, I have compiled a list of names and websites where you can listen to music by women.
Enjoy the music, and add to the list (if you don't think it adds to the divisive nature of this issue!)

Clare
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Magda Mayas (Berlin) Piano myspace. com
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Sabine Voegel (Berlin/Potsdam) Flute, electronics www. sabvog. de
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Manon Liu-Winter (Vienna) piano www. manonliuwinter. at
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Anat Cohavi (Berlin/Tel Aviv) Reeds www. anat-cohavi. com
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Susanna Gartmayer (Vienna) Clarinet :more here
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Jasmine Guffond (Berlin/Sydney) guitar, voice myspace. com/minitmusic
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Andrea Neumann (Berlin) Inside Piano www. japanimprov. com
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Angharad Davies (London) Violin www. angharaddavies. com
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Helena Gough (London) sound artist www. helenagough. net/
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Sachiko M (Tokyo) feedback www. japanimprov. com
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Andrea Ermke (Berlin) samples, field recordings
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Sabine Ercklentz (Berlin) trumpet
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Ami Yoshida (Tokyo) voice www. japanimprov. com
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Emmanuelle Pellegrini (Metz) text, performance myspace. com/emmanuellepellegrini
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Christine Sehnaoui (Paris/Beirut) saxophone myspace. com/christinesehnaoui
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Annette Krebs (Berlin) Guitar and electronics www. myspace. com/sberk1
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Anne LaBerge (Amsterdam) electronics, flute www. annelaberge. com/
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Mary Oliver (Amsterdam) violin, viola, hardanger fiddle magpiemusicdance. com
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Felicity Proven (Amsterdam/Melbourne) Cornet
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Steffi Weismann (Berlin) www. myspace. com/steffiweismann
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Sophie Agnel (Paris) http://sophieagnel. free. fr/
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Birgit Uhler (Hamburg) trumpet
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Billy Roisz (Vienna) laptop + video billyroisz. klingt. org/
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Sylvia Faessler (Vienna) Laptop skylla. klingt. org/
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Margareth Kammerer (Berlin) voice, guitar, poetry www. myspace. com
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Asi Foecker (Berlin) voice, guitar www. myspace. com
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Elisabeth Harnik (Vienna) Piano
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Fernanda Farah (Berlin) voice, accordion www. myspace. com
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Merle Bennett (Berlin) drums www. myspace. com
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Gunda Gottschalk (Wuppertal) violin, viola www. gunda-gottschalk. de
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Ute Volker (Wuppertal) accordion www. utevoelker. de
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Stevie Wishart (Brussels) hurdy gurdy, voice, electronics
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Kaffe Matthews (London) www. annetteworks. com
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Joelle Leandre (Paris) double bass
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Helene Breschand (Paris) harp
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Rosalind Hall (Melbourne) reeds
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Carolyn Connors (Melbourne) voice, ukelele http://www. myspace. com
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Hollis Taylor (Blue Mountains/Sydney) violin, birdcalls
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Louise Currem (Sydney) film
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Joyce Hinterding (Blue Mountains/Sydney) Antennae, phenomena and more... www. sunvalleyresearch. com/
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Amanda Stewart (Sydney) Poet, voice :more here
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Camilla Hannan (Melbourne) field recordings www. camillahannan. com/
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Milica Stefanovic (Sydney) electric bass + Splinter Orchestra
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Monica Brooks (Sydney) accordion, piano, electronics + Splinter Orchestra
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Emily Morandini (Sydney) electronics, found objects, field recordings
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Thembi Soddell (sampler) awesome shit.
cajid. com/thembi/
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Natasha Anderson (Melbourne) recorder cajid. com/artists
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Vanessa Tomlinson (Brisbane) Percussion www. clockedout. org/
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Anthea Caddy (Melbourne/Berlin) Cello myspace. com
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Karen Brooks (Sydney) saxophone + Splinter Orchestra
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Cass McGlynn (Blue Mountains/Sydney) french horn + Splinter Orchestra
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Ai Yamamoto (Melbourne) lap-top + video composer myspace. com
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Satsuki Odamura (Sydney) kick ass Koto improviser satsukikoto. com. au/
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Sandy Evans (Sydney) saxophone www. jazz-planet. com
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Natalia Mann (Melbourne/Istanbul) harp and voice myspace. com
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Sue Harding (Wagga Wagga ) Dot matrix printers http://www. abc. net. au/arts/adlib/
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Rosie Dennis (Sydney) performance, voice, text. Awesome.
www. suture. com. au
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Jo Truman (Sydney) voice :more
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Marilyn Crispell (Woodstock) piano www. marilyncrispell. com
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Anne LeBaron (Valencia CA) harp www. annelebaron. com
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Mary Halvorson (New York) guitar www. maryhalvorson. com
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Jessica Pavone (New York) viola www. jessicapavone. com
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Marina Rosenfeld (New York) turntables... www. marinarosenfeld. com
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Pauline Oliveros www. deeplistening. org/pauline/
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Amina Claudine Myers myspace. com
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Maggie Nicols voice wiki/Maggie_Nicols
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Ikue Mori (New York) electronics www. ikuemori. com
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Zeena Parkins (New York) harp, electronics www. zeenaparkins. com
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Magarida Garcia (New York/Lisbon) electric upright bass MORE
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Catherine Pancake (Baltimore) dry ice wiki/Catherine_Pancake
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Audrey Chen (Baltimore) cello, voice www. audreychen. com
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Bonny Jones (Baltimore) electronics myspace. com
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Susie Ibarra (New York) drums www. susieibarra. com
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Rosie Hertlein (Staten Is.
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LaDonna Smith (Birmingham) viola myspace. com
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Liz Tonne (Boston) voice www. liztonne. com
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Rose Hammer (Baltimore) baritone sax
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Melissa Moore (Baltimore) inventions, clarinet
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Carly Ptak (Baltimore) performance
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Erell Latimier (Nante, France) Voice, Electronics www. antboymusic. com/
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Nusch Werchowska (Rennes, France) piano myspace
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Christine Wodrascka (Toulouse, France) piano
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Soizic Lebrat (Nantes, France) cello myspace
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Martine Altenburger (cello) France
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Katharina Klement (Vienna) http://katharinaklement. com
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Maja Osojnik (Vienna) http://majaosojnik. com
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Angelica Castello (Vienna) http://castello. klingt. org
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Kirsten Bradley (Sydney) video www. cicada. tv/
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Gail Priest (Sydney) Laptop, violin www. snagglepussy. net/
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The Thaw (Sydney) seriously great punk rock / improv www. thethaw. blogspot. com
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Sherre DeLys (Sydney) sound artist www. sounddesign. unimelb. edu. au/
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Sarah Last (Wagga Wagga) space-program. org/
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Sally Golding (Brisbane) live film www. otherfilm. org/
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Donna Hewitt (Brisbane) voice, eMic
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Clare Cooper (Sydney/Berlin) guzheng & harp

myspace | gutstring. net

 

sorry for you...but "you" are a female guitar player...is a matter of fact....exactly the same as i am a "male" guitar player...

this not means that i am better or worst than you...

but the difference is still here...

and that difference is what makes all world goes round...

i really appreciate female musicians...

sometimes also 'cause they express femininity in their sound....

that is great....it is good....i don't see nothing wrong in it....

if a woman want to be strong it has to be different...

if we all be equal it will become really boring...don't you think?

anyway i think that comment is a bit brutal...i admit....

but if someone appreciate you 'cause you are female i think it could be also right in some way....

please leave "politically correctness" to politicians...
 

I'm really glad you said something. Every time, I mean EVERY time I get a compliment on my musical skills there's reference to my gender. Which to me feels like they're saying "You're pretty good, for a girl". I'm going to come up with a list of really witty things to say back, zingers if you will...

My friend's a male nurse, he has the same problem

Rock on y'all
 

That's word. "girl guitarist" is such a bullshit category. Though I have to admit, when I first heard you guys I did think to myself, "hey, she's pretty good for a guitarist." I know it's ignorant, but I just don't usually like the guitar that much, so I was struck that I actually did like this, despite it coming from a guitarist. I'm working to overcome my prejudice though, I promise. And guitarists like yourself definitely help. Thanks.

 

Interesting stuff here.

I was listening to Mary's new trio CD recently and I was totally impressed with her playing as a guitar player (as well as being soothed by the whole band's tunes) Mary said she was trying to play her guitar in an "original and thought provoking" way. I dig that. She has a unique way of playing guitar. Period. When I hear any of her music wether it be the trio, with Weasel Walter, with Trevor Dunn, etc. it always seems like she's doing her own thing.