Because most don't see beyond themselves .. I understand where you are all comming from and I even agreed with you for takeing your stand for what you believed in ... and I still think you should .. perhaps yes more from the community need to step up and show up at more gatherings/ meetups and events to represent themselves so to speak , but many out here feel they don't connect with others or other groups which is really sad .. it matters not which path we walk because in reality we are all still connected .



 

I think my friend the root of many dismay not just in the Las Vegas Pagan Communities but many communities is the tie to the pattern of duality. With a pattern driven so deep that certain beliefs are wrong or certain things are not right, it has become engrained on all of us in some fashion. Even people who have strived to be Wiccan, pagan, hethen or eclectic which is way different then social norms can have these patterns engraved deep. I am not saying that each persons ethics, opinions are not valid, I am just saying that they are merely perceptions. I myself even base my own principles of what is right and wrong by the pattern of restraint and liberation. Meaning that what does not enslave us or harm us, must be good. We each have a divine given choice on things in which the universal law of cause and effect applies. But when that right is taken away from you, whatever does that is not good by my standards. Half the time we enslave ourselves, but there are those out there that wish to be the king/queen of the hill and make choices for others. So the moral of all this verbal chatter is that what you might be dealing with is not a communittee of untrusting pagans but rather patterns that have been laid down for centuries. One solution is by bringing these patterns to awareness and like messengers we all can be, bring enlightenment to the masses ;). One other note is not everyone might be working for the same goal and many might not know that your working for the same goal as them. This is a trust issue which is seen in many pagan communnittes if not quite a few other communitties as well. So much that before becoming a part of some communittees, you dont have an open invite but a full blown interview with fica scores and everything. Please don't let your first attempt to destroy your hopes and dreams. You have worked so hard, these small pains can be seen as destroying storms or, the winds of a hurricane that will bring you to your greatest potential. May the flame of truth guide you always to the greatest splendor.

 

*sigh* Night, no one has said that you are trying to divide the community and in fact, we have told you we are eagerly awaiting the results of your survey. I personally, am just disappointed that you didn't feel that you could come to LVPPD with your concerns prior to leaving and voicing your criticisms publicly to the LV community at large and PPD nationals. We're all human and trying the best we can. I disagree with you that we did not attempt to diversify. You said you were uncomfortable with the standard "wiccan" opening ritual so we didn't have one last year. Guess what? We got slammed by other Elders in the community for that and I stood up for all of you. There were no offers by anyone who follows a LHP to present anything. What were we supposed to do, grab the nearest Llewellyn book and fake it? When you mentioned that the meetings were being held on a day that you could not attend and that you had feedback for us back in January or February, we changed the meeting dates to accommodate YOU and when I asked for that feedback I never got any response.


You're right, we're all working towards the same goal and I believe LVPPD has come a long way from when it first started, but we still have a long way to go. LVPPD invites anyone with input at any time to contact us or come to one of our meetings.



 
 

I didn't say that you or anyone on the committee said this, Lillith. As much support as we've had, we've had dissention as well (from our survey and commentary). I also never stated that absolutely nothing was done to try to add more diversity to LVPPD...I simply said that the attempts that were made failed in the eyes of the community. When you have to bring up the fact that a potential entertainer might be an issue because of a particular belief...there is a problem. It shouldn't matter and should have never been brought up...what difference does it make? It should make none. The change of meeting dates was initially stated that it was because others couldn't attend the original date...it was not initially stated that you were attempting to accomodate us...actually that wasn't even mentioned until later. It seemed like an afterthought...whether it was or wasn't. When I mentioned that we weren't given the opportunity to mention our feedback, we were told that evening presented some at the meeting post-lvppd 2008 and that was our opportunity to voice feedback...the subject was then dropped. We actually attempted this several times (both at meetings and on the yahoo group) with a similar response.
How are we not supposed to feel that our feedback is not valued if this is the response? How many times do we have to say "we mentioned this before" before someone realizes that evidently no one heard us?
 

As far as the entertainer goes #1 they follow a path that many don't consider to be "pagan" #2 the concern was that if we had mainstream media covered us, they might focus on one this one path to the exclusion of others. The purpose of bringing it up was to see if anyone was going to have an issue defending our stance. No one did. Having that discussion doesn't make us un-diverse, it means we're realistic. No one had an issue with that person performing. Unfortunately their schedule conflicted and that was that.


Night, you posted stating your concerns about us having meetings when you could attend and we asked you what days worked for you and changed it accordingly. I also never said that you had one opportunity to voice your feedback. I asked you to share it and you neglected to do so.


We are obviously not going to change each others minds, so blessings upon your path
 

Sometimes you have to take a harsh stance in order to make your intensions clear. That is what we've done, and eventually, people will see that. We didn't want to have to step away from LVPPD, but we felt like we had no choice as we were not all being represented. I look forward to the day when we can all be one, equally represented.

 

Protestant Vs Catholic

Since the dawn of Constantine’s empire, to the construction of European medieval settlements faith has always been intertwined with politics. Where ever the faith was so was the political forum. As Jesus once said “It shall be on earth as it is in heaven.” Whenever the government moves it needs the validation of the church and consent of those it governs. Take for instance the Anglican Church and the Catholic Church, both of which preceded England’s independence stretching forth from the Magna Carta and Henry the Eighth’s demand for a divorce. You can even stretch forth the example of the first and second great awakening to which preceded the revolutionary war and the civil war. Even more troubling is Hitler’s own divine call from god to recreate the ark of covenant, in his call of destiny to wipe away the Jews.


Let me compare and contrast the various denominations that exist before comparing these beliefs to the Roman Catholic Church, each one jarring against one another. The first denomination I will discuss are the Baptists which interprets the bible literally. The Baptists believe that no authority can stand between a believer and god. Started in 1609 by English separatist John Smyth, the church denomination held strict views of separation between church and state. They are largely a denomination with a perfectionist ethical standard. Strangely the denomination is completely autonomous at each local level. Next we have the church of Christ disciples, which like mitosis divided from the individual cell of the Presbyterian Church. The church of Christ like disciples is varyingly like a nondenominational church in religious matters of doctrine and is highly supportive of scholarly education. The Episcopalians believing in the spiritual effects of the sacraments take these elements of the Eucharist to be more than symbolic. The Episcopal church holds its hierarchy very similar to the Catholic Church in use of bishops and parishes. Sadly enough the Episcopalians are a bit of compatibilists comparable to Calvinism. The Jehovah Witnesses stress morality in the highest regard, abstaining from even blood transfusions, alcohol, tobacco and marital infidelity. The Jehovah Witnesses believe that 144,000 will become joint heirs with Christ to rule over men. They reference (New King James Version, Revelation 7:4-8) to confirm their beliefs. The Jehovah Witnesses proclaim total allegiance to god’s kingdom first and foremost, this adds to their belief of a 144,000 joint heirs.
(2003 Almanac)

The Latter Day Saints, or Mormons, believe that theirs is the true church of Christ and that all others are apostate. They believe that the true church was restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. The Lutherans, the first protestant church that sprouted all other daughter churches have a doctrine of two kingdoms one worldly and one holy. They hold to conservatism in secular affairs ironically main divisions are largely fundamentalist liberals. The Methodists remembered for John Wesley, they are pious and perfectionists with strong social activist elements. The orthodox church is similar to most. The only strange difference here is that the American orthodox was held under the control of the patriarch of Moscow. It was recently granted autonomy in 1970 and the Greek orthodox still do not recognize this autonomy. The Pentecostal church largely emphasizes tongues and the holy spirit. This congregation was once confined to the lower classes. This congregation was called by nickname as “Holy Rollers.” However now this congregation remains amongst mainline and middle class congregations. Presbyterians largely emphasize the sovereignty and justice of god. Traces of predestination permeate this denomination but are no longer the central theme. Lastly the apostolic church believes that one can only be saved if they are baptized according to acts 2:38 in the name of Jesus. They also believe that tongues are a sign of salvation and that one has received the holy spirit.
(2003 Almanac)

(Black Red Lion)
This all brings us to the modern protestant view which today is called the non-denominational Christian Church. The protestant view has left us with what is currently a dance with the devil in the pale moonlight. Here we see the church conclude with Satan and acknowledge his works as something we must give way to have eternal life. This is the premise of compatabilism, which is loosely an adaptation of freewill and what they consider predestination based upon god’s paradoxical laws which can amount to confusion, or at least that’s how protestants view it. In this setting many might see it as Protestants riding upon Satan in this condemnation that has arisen to preside in many secret societies with in the free democratic world.


The most notable work of fiction regarded in this light is the book Don Quixote (Miguel de Cervantes) Grapes of Wrath can also be noted here. This supposedly highlights the bible (New King James Version, Jude, Ezekiel 23:1-21, Revelation 15:13-14, Isaiah 14:29-32 Isaiah 35:1-10). In these books compatibilists condemnation of so called unclean people occurs. It was in this context people validated the condemnation of freed slaves and the murder of key figures like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. In the fictional book Huckle Berry Finn (Mark Twain) the fictional work of Don Quixote was ridiculed because in accordance to compatabilism it was god’s will that slaves being freed rocking the boat were condemned to hell and to be killed. Such evil hypocritical thoughts were ridiculed in Huckle Berry Finn and the classic novel has become a symbol of how civilization is hypocrisy and to note the protestant view of faith as well. Out of such context where anarchy is condemned, one can deduce work like Civil disobedience is also condemned. This is the reason they killed Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
(Henry David Thoreau)

In addition to this fictional book Don Quixote, ironically the skull and bones society has a statue of Don Quixote, the Pope and Satan all together. They also have pictures of bombs presumably smart bombs, which in regard to recent details of explanation by philosophers of compatibilism were regarded to similarity of the smart bomb. In this regard it was noted how a smart bomb moves out of the way when a object gets in it’s path, continuing on it’s destination to destroy its target. It must be doubly noted that without such interpretation an autonomous free society could not exist, as we now have it today. I must stress the definition of compatabilism to further express this view point. The definition of compatibilism loosely is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible. A very strange idea and seemingly innocent this belief is quite more then what it might appear by simple definition, it is more than meets the eye. Compatibilism in this sense might be seen similar to a Star Wars film, with its eccentricities of the force. Another similar function might be like the functioning of an unseen machine or robotic force along side the natural occurrences of free will spanning individuals living out their lives in everyday life.


In such interpretation according to a protestant point of view, all events that are transpired of government are in effect of god’s will in the proposed idea of determinism. In this retrospect the starving, jobless, slave ridden, repentant criminals and abused all have fallen under gods wish to be treated in their perspective ill treated manners. Further emphasized is that one not complain of such circumstances, this is further viewed in meditations (Rene Desecrate). This is why the southern pulpit stressed Canaan when referring to the slaves of the south. They had saw it as an act of determinism and also loosely based on the facts they were previously in history, moors. This is further laid out when one looks at the fabled scarlet letter, which contains more history and compatiblist ideology then strict metaphor for being an outcast. In this setting the merciful acts of believers would be used in a backwards act of compassion and love to accept their deterministic fate rested in the established system of dignitaries and this is always the case, despite what occurrence exists according to compatiblists. Basically compatibilism is the way secret societies and the church oppress the needy. I don’t think most protestants denominations today lay themselves upon such a dogmatic assembly in determinism, but I could be wrong. I do believe however, the secret societies do seeing they have a political need to validate the autonomous forum of differentiating denominations.


Further insight into the Protestant ethos reveals another secret society the illuminate. This society spanned from scientists who combined their faith with science. They used metaphors of science to describe spiritual revelations they had from compatiblist views. A way off example of metaphors they might use might be like shockwave or sound wave, which act like mediums in between objects possibly similar of so called prophecy like in the cave (Plato) or the effect of an explosion how a shockwave propagates possibly explaining the crushing of the Nebuchadnezzar statute of metals.(New King James Version, Daniel 2:31-36). I know most people will talk about what amounts to the old wives tale of pink elephants, but can you not wonder as the idea of why secret language has aspired from a few philosophers over the course of the years.
(anonymous sources)

Further in let us examine the protestant ethos as in accord to several philosophers that might subsequently validate religiously our current economics and government. The system of economics of capitalism is designed to keep working class people poor and hard working ,to keep people from sinning in sloth. To separate from this and be so eloquently said “saved from the fire” in a set of anarchy would be seen as a condemnation by protestants according to compatibilism (New King James Version, Jude, Isaiah 35:1-10 Isaiah 14:29-32). This is why so many people became subsequent socialists in Europe during the industrial age of child labor. This is also probably why writers like Jack London were in such fervor in what they wrote. The sad thing about these writers is that they did not take into consideration the changing nature of compatiblists to accommodate their complainers. Such example can be viewed in the essay of Prospective on Borders in the text book Visions Across America in the metaphor of a serpent changing its skin in a act of rebirth(Luis M. Valdez). The book the Spirit of Capitalism best describes the economic protestant ethic of keeping men in objective poverty and in strenuous circumstances(Max Weber). Further hypocrisy can be viewed in the Second Treatise of Government (John Locke). In this subsequent piece it can be seen that inmate populations are possibly coerced into making prison life scary and torturous beyond the scope of even justice. This is also further emphasizes elitism and capital coercion as being of god’s kingdom. Here these protestant ideals further enforce their beliefs in compatibilism, where needed mercy might not be afforded to those in need of it, beyond the scope of normal measures, that further one should not complain.


As it was previously stressed politics follow the religion. As Martin Luther expressed such regard, while it may not be understood, for an autonomous capital society of protestant denominations, must be made in order to religiously validate it’s authority. In this regard I think the Baptists might understand and be on the right track since they believe that nothing can separate them from god. Maybe that’s why statistically many of them are of African American descent, since compatibilism would not necessarily be a good idea for such believers having encountered much prejudice from such ideals post and after the civil war era. If anybody disagrees and is disgusted with this protestant view, I share your sentiments and advise you to look it up for yourself, I am not lying in the least regard. “A” leads to “b” leads to “c” simple algorithms one would learn in geometry. As such it makes the idea of compatibilism easy to follow and quite redundant like a circle.


Further let us view the difference between the Catholic bible and the protestant bible. The Catholic bible has 11 more books then the protestant bible in the old testament, also known as the apocrypha or hidden. This is because Martin Luther, the father of the protestant reformation, took them out of translation from the original Latin vulgate, written in 520AD by St. Gerome. These eleven books have changed the interpretation of end times drastically. They were taken out of the protestant bible because they conflicted with protestant biblical interpretation of the bible, which has become the modern doctorate. Catholics also in wide differentiation are largely held to the idea of salvation by merit gained through grace and do not believe as Martin Luther did by faith alone. Largely held to this idea of merit Catholics are very devout to supplication, charity and mercy. Acts of penance are routine in Catholicism and are also regarded as payment for transgressions.(Kenneth C.
Davis)


(Blue White Lion)
In addition the Catholic faith holds to the idea of purgatory, a place for the unvirtuous awaiting trial and tribulation to enter into heaven. Purgatory should not be confused with the protestant idea of compatibilism, these events are believed to occur after death. The other main difference that divides Catholicism from protestant is in the veneration of saints. Protestants believe that Catholics violate the bible in this respect( New King James Version, Exodus 20:4) However the Jewish Public society has said that one can violate the letter of the law without violating its spirit. Certainly even protestants have images of god and things in heaven. One look at the literary novels and films of our time and times past gives way to this proof. So the question that remains to be answered is this, does making a image the same as worship? Does the fact that people pray before statues and objects of symbolic member of faith the same as worship of those objects? The Catholic Church says no and points to the bible(New King James Version, Revelation 14:1-6) in their veneration of saints and requests of prayers. In truth is it any different to ask the virtuous dead for prayer then a living nobody. The Catholic Church in short unlike the Protestant faiths are highly dogmatic and venerate the saints Jesus and the Virgin Mary. Possible biblical accounts to the veneration of Mary appear in the bible(New King James Version, Revelation 12:1-17).
(2003 Almanac)

In Conclusion The Catholic faith would emphasize mercy and charity. The effect this may have on politics is probably what inspired most of Europe to become democratic socialists. I can also point to the charitable beliefs of the Jews in this regard in their construction of a Social Parliament. This is starkly different from the unfeeling sociopath like views of protestants in the redeemable effect of faith alone doctrine. Their interpretations of proper ethics for autonomous society are more along the lines of fire an torment from the ground replacing a need to be saintly. In addition most Protestants are unawares of their doctrinal beliefs and this is concluded as part of a ruse of manipulation (Stephen Prothero). It would seem we have come to end scenario as poverty is no crime the end is in sight. Eating seeds was a past time activity the toxicity of the city is overflowing, mystery solved. The war dawn of summer time begins as we come to this seemingly climatic clash between autocratic righteousness that in amalgamation and Catholicism faith shares vs. the autonomous views of the protestant amazing grace faith. It is time to head out west and destroy the protestant oligarchy that has been constructed by these secret societies. Place your bets, this summer time war will get hot soon, in addition to many spy Vs spy tactics. Time to kill the snake and its bride. Truth be told I could careless about religion or politics, but I cant stand to see people needlessly suffer. It does not even matter if they only suffer by faith, can’t stand it. I am a firm believer in mercy and supplication and I will do whatever it takes to make that solid ground and faith of the air, which includes the homosexuals they mistreat. I can’t stand prop 8 and how they take advantage of them, feeling them well enough to tax but not good enough to allow them the liberal freedom of marriage. The Protestants of California truly are hypocrites.

Works Cited
Multimedia CD-Rom
The World Almanac 2003

Revelation 14:1-6,Revelation 7:4-8, Revelation 12:1-17, Exodus 20:4,Jude, Isaiah 35:1-10 Isaiah 14:29-32,Daniel 2:31-36,Ezekiel 23:1-21
New King James Version

Religious Literacy
Stephen Prothero

The Cave
Plato

Mediations
Rene Descartes

The Spirit of Capitalism
Max Weber

Second Treatise of Government
John Locke

Civil Disobedience
Henry David Thoreau

Visions Across America, Prospective On Borders
Luis M.
Valdez

Don’t Know Much About The Bible
Kenneth C.
Davis

Anonymous Sources
 

Night,

hello love! i have read and reread many things i even read the post lvppd posted. i think it is sad the way thigns are going but we were right to take this stand what ever you do know you have support and many that stand behind you no matter what happens. one day when the " Heirarchy" has changed and words can be heard and not twisted for someone elses benifit i am sure the community will come back together. it has taken 10 years here in vegas to get this far at least there are groups now 10 years ago there were wars here between houses and covens and groups what ever you may call them so to those who are heading those groups this might be a GREAT change from that time ago.. however what they dont realise is that those old wars and ways of thinking are STILL present. many still balk at having more than thier own group present and dislike having to " share" a community with someone unlike them and possably be categorized as similar. and that thought process is why we stand and fight for equality and diversity.. as you know this is a fight i have been fighting for years now for more than one reason. i await the day when all peopel are equal in all things and that noone is looked down upon, however that time is still a ways off. i will be talking to you tonight about such things i have planned.. see you then



EJ
 

Lady Night,

This was my first year on the LVPPD committee, and yours too, correct? For those of you who don't know, I represent the Temple of the Inner Circle and Lady Morgana at these meetings. You should know that this commentary is mine and mine alone and does not reflect the views of the Temple, Lady Morgana, the Bell, Book, and Candle, or LVPPD. I am just a non-paid volunteer taking time away from my life, my group, and my world to contribute like everyone else on the LVPPD planning committee.


I was very excited to be able to help with LVPPD this year. I personally believe that a UNITED pagan community is better than a divided one. (United we stand, divided we fall.) The mission statement of LVPPD states that "We are committed to providing true and accurate information about Pagan spiritual paths." That: "We are committed to protecting the rights and interests of those choosing to self-identify as Pagans through public outreach and/or political activism as necessary." And that "we are committed to weaving networking webs with other groups that share our beliefs.
" How can we do this if we are divided?

With all that said, in my experience and in my personal opinion... there was NEVER an instance where "the LVPPD, turned into a house of politico's, and who wants be in charge of thier dog & pony show, and us having to get all thier shit, because We dont fall in to thier cooky cutter visions fo what Pagans should be.
"

Case in fact... with HOKS with us on the committee THEY represented the otherkin and an even more diverse range of pagans... those who Night says they felt they didn't belong. If I remember correctly, HOKS had a community booth just like everyone else who wanted to participate. HOKS also brought with them several paranormal groups.
How was LVPPD NOT diverse if the HOKS was right there helping and planning and doing just as much than everyone else on the planning committee? Seriously!? Think about that! How could LVPPD be more diverse than that!?

Case in fact... HOKS had a large hand in the planning of the day itself! There wasn't much that HOKS did not do for LVPPD from maintaining websites, producing advertisements, to sharing ideas. Working with the members of HOKS who were on the committee was a great joy for me. Here we have two, no three, very strong and independent women who know how to get things done... and they did! If LVPPD failed to "become a true representation of the local pagan community" then the fault lies in the ENTIRE committee and the entire COMMUNITY! Yes, ME and YOU!

I am saddened that I no longer will be able to work with these women that I respect and admire. By HOKS leaving and revoking their support LVPPD will have to work harder to be what Night claims: "We want our local pagan pride day to be a true representation of our community and welcoming to all." With their withdrawal, they take away the most diverse group of pagans; for this, I am also saddened. But most of all, I am saddened by the way HOKS decided to revoke that support.


The recriminations in the withdrawal letter you submitted to the committee were actually great bits of feedback that could have been used to make LVPPD better! But to publicly publish the accusations without publishing the actual documents to support them... ! To speak for the "community" as a whole...? How can you say "Our intention (Haven) was never to divide the community further, but to push harder for respect of all beliefs and true diversity." Just look at the comments you received on the HOKS page. ("I think it is prefect for saying f*ck you without saying it.") Look at some of the comments received here. If you truly did not want to cause dissension in the community then perhaps sticking with the committee for another year and contributing would have been better. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...

Maybe you didn't intentionally mean to "divide the community" but it seems that may have been the result anyway. I hope not. I hope we can use what you've done as a catalyst to drive more pagans to want to help. I hope...

I support that you are taking a stance for your "beliefs." I just wish your "beliefs" had more clarity for everyone. I will miss you at our meetings. I hope we can have your participation in the future.


For the rest of you reading this... EJ (Mouse) is correct. LVPPD has a purpose; "to protecting the rights and interests of those choosing to self-identify as Pagans" which includes making "all peopel are equal in all things and that noone is looked down upon"... and to get rid of "ways of thinking [that] are STILL present" ...but unlike EJ, I don't believe that "that time is still a ways off.
"

Let's UNITE the pagan community for just ONE day and who knows.... in the future... for more than that. Come to a public meeting. Come feel the dynamic for yourself. Contribute for the sake of your community. Submit your ideas and opinions! Don't be shy. We don't bite. Mikheil does (or at least he looks like he does.
:-) )

Best regards,
Atheona.