It helped, just like Malcom helped, just like Booker T. helped. Anybody or anything that gets the black man to think about improvement is a great help. In all the teaching i have read, i've come to the conclusion that sacrifice makes great men. The more you are willing to lose the more you will gain.

 

I believe that it helped us, but in the midst of it all there is always confusion...that confusion hindered us.  I believe that confusion was the violence/non-violence approach that varies leaders used.  Nevertheless, Martin's pus for integration has opened a lot of doors for everyone, not just blacks, now the question is...how do we get back to the UNITY of blacks!
 

It hurt ! Intergration hurt, but intergration is complex and Martin wasn't really pushing intergration there is a misconception about that, he was pushing equality! Intergration was just a means to an end. By focusing on intergration we loose sight of the mans real goal. We still don't have either of them Intergration nor equality it's just an illusion !

 

I agree, almost rich boy.

Integration implies going in as equals. Assimilation is when you go in as anything less...I think the system wanted assimilation. A lot of ethnic groups got to integrate...we did not. Some groups, like the Italians, had a harder time (because some of them were darker than some of us!) than other whites but still "white" groups integrated relatively easy.
 

I was interviewing an artist by the name of Wise Intelligent and he made a very good point that instead of fighting to be accepted by the white society during the civil rights kick off with the bus boycott, we shouldve gotten our own bus system and hired our own people instead of forcing them to utilize our money. He also said that a white man would kill his momma for nickel and a dime so of course hed be cordial to the black folks in order to get their money. I agree because I feel that instead of telling theses people we want equal rights we shouldve invested in having our own stuff. Then our moral value would have stayed high and we would have more respect for each other and the power within our unity. God bless the child that has his own! The problem is once we were told we have equal rights and they gave us a lil more rope to hang ourselves with our youth went crazy, society found themselves swing in a pool of lost hope and drowning with aspirations. I believe that unity is the key to saving our kind, our community, our value system , and more. We dont need to live all our life exposed to everyone elses culture and we cant even lay a foundation for our own!

 

Jess, how true .... how true... digg this if we take that same concepts that you speak of, we could change the very thought of our society of black people. Think of it our on banking system, on Insurence Companies... listen the rest of the world knows what Euro-America has done to the black man, specialy the Nations of Arabs and other people of color. Listen, if Black America was more organized we wouldnt need Angalena Jolie, Brad Pitt and Bonoo to save Africa, the Nation of Islam, the NAACP, Oprah, Bill Cosbey and all these other critzing blacks could have enterviened and stop the war between the Huo-Tu and Tusee tribes and Africa and even the wars that are going on right now between tribes... but our problem is is that the so called Talented 10th ar our for self... Your Thoughts Sissta Please.

Simon D. Black

 

all due respect to bro. wise, but he should study his southern history a bit more...there were definitely people throughout the south starting plenty of black enterprises (hotels, hospitals, you name it). that wasn't the issue. they were boycotting a PUBLIC bus system, which means everyone's tax dollars go in, everyone should get equal treatment. there was no lack of initiative to create black business in the south, even in the face of klan terrorists who killed successful black businesspeople and destroyed successful black businesses. i think he misunderstood the issue at hand. also, the logistics of running a seperate bus system, privately, doesn't make a lot of good business sense, especially considering who you would have to go to in order to buy the buses or in order to buy the raw materials needed to manufacture your own buses (I'm sure the next idea would be to create black owned steel mines, but hey...sometimes the end goal isn't worth the start up costs).

these things are always much more complex than they appear...

 

I do believe in equal rights TOTALLY but as far as integrating...it wasnt that necessary. As a matter of fact when we did integrate a lot of black teachers lost their jobs I believe 70 percent because white people didnt want a black teacher teaching their child. That was one of the strongest work forces for African American women. I feel that that was one of the major things that held our people back. If we werent there to educate our own and tell them the truth we left them open to being brainwashed. Plus if we wouldve united and made our own we wouldve earned equal rights because the black economy wouldve made room for respect.

 

well, it took several decades for integration to really affect who went to what school...for years and years, formerly all-black schools stayed predominantly black...so I find it hard to believe that 70% of black teachers instantly lost their jobs after Brown v. Board was decided. I grew up in the South, there are plenty of virtually all-black public schools to this day, with majority (if not all) black teaching staffs. So, I really can't picture any real dropoff in jobs available to black teachers post-Brown (although I admittedly haven't scientifically researched the issue).

Integrating is voluntary...what MLK and company argued and/or got killed for was equal rights/access. Everyone CHOSE where they wanted to go after that. my point is, we can't blame MLK for what black and white people CHOSE to do with the equal rights/access he got killed for us to have.
 

when we were legally segregated, it was easier to keep us all in one place where we could all receive the same substandard services, whether it was health care or education (even though our own teachers did the best to give us the best education possible even with limited resources provided by the state, outdated textbooks, etc).

the deal is THIS, family.

in jim crow days, the phd might only have the option of teaching black kids in the schoolhouse or the HBCU. nowadays, he/she can teach anywhere, so we have a brain drain.

also, the black entrepreneur in jim crow days could only service his own and the black customer could only go to the black entrepreneur, but now we can take our dollars anywhere...

HOWEVER

the mere availability of integrated facilities isn't what makes folks think the other man's 'ice is colder'. that's a MENTALITY. all MLK and them did was fight to eliminate the LAWS that made things imbalanced...it was up to the following generations to continue to keep money 'in the family' and continue to commit black talent to black elevation...you can't blame MLK for black flight...WE did that after he opened the door for us...

now, there are some issues...some people wonder why justice marshall never had a clerk from howard law from which he graduated...many others also stepped through the door, looked back and said 'i did my part just by opening the door' and kept walking...

it's a very complicated issue, but integration is NOT to blame AT ALL...that's like blaming money for people smoking crack...sure, they use money to buy it and people sell crack to get it...but that ain't money's fault! LOL.

seriously though...a door was opened...we improperly handled the opportunity...we should have been getting money on their side and spending money on OUR side...but it's not too late...we can still get it....

ps: liquuor store is a tight song.
 

ps: the same argument can be made against northern migration, btw. at certain points we were 50% of the population in several southern states. if we had held our ground there, we could have (looking at black birth rates vs. white birth rates in the south) conceivably attained majorities in several states, had our own senators, governors, etc, if we held ground and fought as a mass in a localized region instead of dispersing.

 

 

Yes - you are touching on a very powerful and controversial topic.  If they are scared of this topic -- go to church.  (smile) I will be subscribing to your thought provoking blogs. 

*pointing* That's my brother ladies and gentlemen.

(Family floss)

 

This is a very complex question.  The idea of integration in itself wasn't inherently a bad idea.  However, because the racial climate at the time was so sketchy, black people really had to assimilate to white American culture in order to even set whites at ease about being open-minded towards blacks.  That was what hurt.  During this time, the middle class emerging and the suburbs were experiencing tremendous growth.  The US was establishing its international greatness and Blacks wanted to be a part of those communities, and larger society in general.  Integration, for blacks, ended up meaning assimilation.  From here, you get your Uncle Ruckus' who praise everything white and condemn everything them. 

The question, though, is how important a role did integration play in blacks being accepted into white society?  And without it, where would we be...further ahead or further behind?  Because integration certainly had some positive implications.

 

Its about time that I finally state my opinion. I am proud of all the you who responded. All had good points and were intelligent That being said, I will give my opinion: Intergration has failed the masses of black people. And when you judge a program or policy, one cannot focus or be sidetracked by the few success stories, or those that slipped through the cracks. YOu must judge by the MASSES. The masses of blacks live in all black communities, go to all black underfunded schools, live below at or below the poverty line, lack appropriate health care, even hospitals in the black community are rated lower than those in white communities. The only blacks truly accecpted in white society are the atheletes and entertainers, who had some level of acceptance before desegregation. Where's the equality? Where's the benifits of the integration movement? Ponder on that and I'll add a couple of more cents a little later. PEace
 

 

Integration- n. incorporation as equals into society or an organization of individuals of different groups (as races)

Thats not to say we have to live side by side and be buddies, all it states is that we have the rights to be equal(not that we didnt before, but by law), the rights that Martin died to achieve. Rights which we dont take full advantage of. If you are a parent your duty is to your children. Teach your kids about credit, show them the value of a dollar (i.e. credit cards are for people with money that dont want to carry around large sums of cash, not for people without money who "want" things anyway), Show them about ownership (own your home), be someone your children can be proud of because they strive to be like you....But teach them to be better. Teach them to be learders, dont lead them to work for others. Save so your kids can go to college and not worry about getting out and having a ton of loans (its attainable just think about how much we spend on "wants") Its starts at home, at some point we have to break the cycle. Its not the white-mans fault my family smoke crack, its mine and my families, we have failed each other(Its tough to swallow and easier to say intergration has failed, but we as a people have failed) Its not the white-mans fault we spend more than we have, its not his fault that we would rather give him our money than each other. We did that, and we continue to do that. Thats not to say we havent made leaps and bounds. We have tons of successful blacks, not just a few who slipped through the cracks (not just entertainers and ateletes, I could list em but I havent the room). Without integration we wouldnt have people like Puff, Russell, Jay-Z, Master P. Lets be real this is the way THE WORLD works, most people are followers and the leaders in the world understand this so they take advantage of it. It has nothing to do with integration, that was just a benefit afforded us by the likes of Martin to which we have yet to take full advantage. The masses are always weak and it will continue to be so. Its up to you if you choose to break that cyle within your family. 

As far as atheletes and entertainers, its not them who are "accepted" its their money. Weather your black or white or pink your not "accepted" if you dont have money, your tolerated. The atheletes and entertainers throw money at charities (not a knock at all) when they could just send 10-15 kids to college each. Make it more personal, not just another tax right off. Help build our communities (i.e. schools, hospitals) Start a fund to increase the teachers salary (we have spoke about that before) invest in our future as black on a whole. Dont go to Africa to help until we have cleaned up at home.

I could go on forever but I have taken up enough space here, so in closing......

Yes integration helped. Have we taken advantage? NO

 

MIKE U HAVE SOME GREAT IDEAS IN THAT LAST PARAGRAPH. I COULDN'T AGREE MORE. HOWEVER, U GIVE INTEGRATION TOO MUCH CREDIT FOR THE SUCCESSES OF PEOPLE LIKE JAY-Z, RUSSELL AND ETC... BEFORE INTEGRATION IN THE SIXTIES WE HAD MILLIONAIRES TOO. JAMES BROWN OWNED ALL OF HIS PUBLISHING, HIS OWN LABEL, AND EVEN OWNED HIS OWN RADIO STATION. BLACK ENTREPRENEURS LIKE MADAME CJ WALKER MADE MILLIONS. U KNOW MABYE EVEN BETTER THAN I, ALL OF THE BLACK INVENTORS LIKE GARRETT MORGAN AND COUNTLESS OTHERS THAT CAME OUT OF SEGREGATION. WHERE ARE ALL OUR BLACK INVENTORS NOW? DURING SEGREGATION BLACKS OPENED, OWNED, AND OPERATED THEIR OWN COLLEGES LIKE TUSKEGEE, ETC..., DO U SEE US OPENING THEM UP NOW. ITS LIKE THEY TRADED US ENTERTAINMENT  AND SPORTS FOR EDUCATION AND EMPOWERMENT. LOOK AT OUR HOOD BEFORE AND AFTER INTEGRATION. BEFORE: THE HOOD HAD BLACK GROCERS, BLACK SHOE MAKERS, BLACK OWNED GAS STATIONS, BLACK OWNED CLOTHING SHOPS, ETC...EVERY THING U NEEDED U COULD BUY FROM A BLACK PERSON. ALSO, ALL OF OUR DOCTORS, LAWYERS, ENTREPRENUERS, ETC. LIVED IN THE HOOD. BLACK KIDS GREW UP WITH TANGIBLE ROLE MODELS, NOT JUST ENTERTAINERS AND ATHELETES. I KNOW, I KNOW...ITS ALL OUR FAULT...WE CANT BLAME THE WHITE MAN... u are absolutely right. however, the question was: Did Martin's push for intergation help or hurt? All statistics conclude that we are far worse economically, more divided, and less educated since, so how did it help? In what area? what real oppurnities did open up, that couldn't have opened without it?
 

We still have plenty of black inventors and patent holders.

Dr. Patrica Bath, Dr. Mark Dean, Kenneth Dunkley, Valrie Thomas, John Thompson, James E. West, Dr. Betty Harris to name a few (click links for many many more)

READ

READ

Philip Emeagwali- Accurate weather forecasting, Hyberball Computer, Worlds fastest computer,  Improved Petroleum Recovery (below is a link to Pres. Bill Clinton speaking about him)

 http://emeagwali.com/video/president-bill-clinton/one-of-the-great-minds-of-the-information-age.wmv

Yes James Brown owned his own radio station and label but who else did? maybe one or two others. Now we have countless black owned stations and labels (still no black distrubution though)

More blacks now than ever are college graduates, the number of doctors and lawyers since the 60's has boomed and continues to do so. Education is only half of it though, like I said it starts at home. teach your children to uplift the community and not abondon it. You dont get an education and have success to get out, you do it and reinvest in your community. Come back and grab a hand or two and lead them down the correct path. Each one teach one!!!

Your looking too deep into integration. Intergration only gave us the right to be equal, the rights to vote, the rights to reap the same benefits as all in America. That helped us tremendously to grow as a people (more college grads, more black owned homes and businesses, more oppotunities). Remember its only been about 50 yrs (a speck in time) and look where we are, in prime position to take a hold of our future. We still suffer from the Willie lynch syndrome, but its not to late. Blogs like this get the ball rolling and we continue from there. We have failed to take FULL advantage of integration, but we have taken advantage. EDUCATE and REBUILD 

(I am horrible at spelling, please forgive all the mistakes)

 

Like dude said, we do suffer from the Willie Lynch syndrome.  Who does me dirtier than anyone else...black people.  Who won't put me on when they get on...black people.  Integration is a facade that Europeans use to have some thinking that slavery doesn't exist.  If you take a read what Lynch said closely, it seems as though they did a damn good job.  Now they give you the rope so you can hang yourself.  Since the Regan area, 88% percent of African American males 18 - 35 are involved with the penial system in some shape or fashion.  They are either incarcerated, on parole, on probabtion, or have cases pending.  They put the drugs in our communities and won't give us a job.  How are you supposed to make a living?  Of course they welcome athletes and entertainers into mainstream society.  From a business standpoint, why wouldn't you?  In sports, more wins mean more fans which mean more tickets and paraphenalia sold.  It equates to a bigger bottom line.  In the entertainment industry, it the same idea with a little twist.  If you aren't talking about dope or killing someone, you're music isn't accepted.  Then they show you all the bullshit that means nothing at all...the hoes, the clothes, fancy cars.  What child growing up poor, mostly in our communities, doesnt want this?  The more of this the rapper has, the more fans they have.  More fans mean more record sales which mean more profit for the record label and the artist gets the scraps like a dog under the dinner table.  Now you have an influential figure, who happens to be black, telling the younger generations to kill our own people with drugs and weapons and they think this is cool.  You're right, we do suffer from the Willie Lynch syndrome...nowadays they don't have to tell us to get rid of us, we do it for them and they profit from it.
 

its funny how black folks think interrogation is an improvement for us, thats a damn shame, Dr. King's method of interrogation (in the beginning of his mission) did damaged to Black People. That's the reason I admire the Jewish community, because when they were told by Anglos they're not wanted, they didnt boycott, they started their own businesses to do something for themselves and their people and we must study their success and implement it

 

 

 

I see that you may have had a few run ins with them people...that's a tactic they use to break the weak.  Plead the fifth man.  Better yet, don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
 

I think it is a double edged sword.  It helped in that it allowed people of all races have more access to public facilities and live where they wanted.  But in the same token, people still tend to stay with their own.  Once integration came, many whites moved to other areas, some of these effects can be seen in some of the areas in Chicago where there are abandoned buildings, depressed local economy, high unemployment, etc.  Once integration was the rule, I think it turned into a RACE and CLASS issue.  Blacks with money could now leave the hood, go to the suburbs, or downtown, or up north with less hassle, but leave behind those that couldn't afford to leave.  Once the  more affluent members of the community left and since tax money and spending generate money for public resources, such as schools, hospitals, libraries, all of these things suffered in our neighborhoods.  Other ethnic neighborhoods have economic investment in their own communities (Polish, Mexican, Italian, Jewish).  However, in our neighborhoods, people outside of our communities take advantage of the lack of investment in the neighborhood, opening up food and liquor stores, beauty shops, and gas stations that overcharge and often sell inferior quality products.  Its kinda like what Mikkey was sayin in that song liquor store.  They let us integrate cause they saw we were getting bread on our own and love them so much that we would stopped gettin it and on our own to spend it with them if we could...Crazy...
 

When a child throws a temper tandrum, and a parent gives in...

has it hurt or helped the child?

The average person would say hurt, right...

What if it was for a tandrum was for a grape or apple?

Now it starts getting complex, right?

Integration is America's way of shutting up the temper tradrum of "Black Americans"  For that reason only-- it has hinder us because we still believe that we should look to White imperialism for answers that lie within ourselves...

What would have been ideal is a take our "40 acres and mule"...so that we could establish industries, and not be slaves within "their" industries...

nice question...

 

Integration itself isn't a bad thing. The premise, in some cases was wrong though. Take, for example, school desegregation.

Even after the measures taken after Brown vs. the Board of Education, the Great Society programs (Head Start, etc.), the Civil Rights Acts (1957 and 1964) and acts such as the ESEA (Elementary and Secondary Education Act -- which recently got perverted into the No Child Left Behind act...but that's another convo) made pushes forward for black (and poor) children, especially ones in heavily segregated schools in the south. However, in the urban north where I grew up, there was still de facto segregation. Jim Crow was de jure ("by law") segregation, de facto is segregation as a practice. When I say the urban north, I especially mean the midwest, places like Detroit, Chicago and, my hometown, Cleveland. I will use Cleveland as an example because that's home.

Neighborhoods were kept segregated so people went to segregated schools because the neighborhoods were. The black neighborhood schools were supplied with inferior materials, physical plant and unexperienced teachers while the white schools got better equipment, buildings and staff. In 1976, when a decision was finally made to desegregate Cleveland schools, they had to figure out how. Instead of saying, all schools have to be at this level, whether they are in black neighborhoods or white ones, they said we will keep the black community schools the way they are and have all kids spend 6 years in black neighborhood schools and 6 years in white ones. This meant long school bus rides and a disconnect between parents and schools, which led to lack of involvement. Also, white kids didn't blame the school board that made the decisions or their parents. They blamed the black kids and vice versa so there were lots of threats and violence. Needless to say, white parents (and some black ones) pulled their kids out of public schools and into private (especially Catholic) schools if they couldn't afford moves to the suburbs. The ones that were left were poor black, white, Latino, Native American and a small contingent of Asian students...and they all suffered an inferior education.

So, to answer Mikkey's question, no, I don't think integration is bad. If integration is executed poorly or on ignorant premises, then it can be as destructive, if not more so, than segregation.

These days, we need more economic integration. That's what made black communities successful back in the day. You had doctors, living next to janitors, living next to bus drivers, living next to teachers, living next to lawyers. You saw both blue collar and white collar black folk around the corner and they were approachable. They would be at the barber shop or over for dinner. We don't have that as much as we did. All Americans can benefit from structures like that not just us (black folks).
 

I don't think it was Martin's push that hurt as much as it was how we reacted to it. We should have had the right to go into a convenient bathroom located right across the street from us as opposed to going to one 3 blocks down. If you're driving and hungry or lost, you deserve the right to stop in the first restaurant/diner you see to eat and get directions. Not wait for the nearest "colored" one.
When we got integration we became those integration happy negroes the Malcolm talke about. We put these places the the white people at the time didn't want us in and abandoned the places that fed and clothed us at home. Thats why to this day there are South and West Side blocks of stores that aren't open and can't get opened because we would rather take our asses downtown or any other place that the hood than shop. Now if the quality isn't there or the attitudes of the owners or employees aren't right then you of course have every right to take your money elsewhere. But we hurt ourselves and our potential strong black economy when we got "too good" for our own neighborhoods.
 

What's good...I think that this video connects great with the question along with Martin's vision and push for integration.
What do do you think though??