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Bill



Last Updated: 11/18/2009

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Age: 39
City: BALLWIN
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20 Aug 09 Thursday 04:07 PM

Category: News and Politics

The hypocrisy of political parties is never so evident as it is when they speak out about something that they once condemned or did themselves.  The recent surge of emotion and political interest at legislators’ town hall meetings, normally a boring gathering of a handful of constituents, is a shining example of the switch in attitudes in both the Republican and Democrat parties.

When anti-war protesters disrupted speeches or Congressional testimony, Republicans, by and large, cast them as either whackos or professional agitators who were being financed and encouraged to organizations who seem to exist solely to oppose George W Bush or the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.   Currently, many Republicans welcome the chants and protests as signs of discontent over President Obama’s  spending and policy visions.

  (Note: Personally, I apply a bit of nuance to differentiating those protesting war and those protesting a political figure.  It is well within the rights of citizens to do either, regardless of the constructive impact of either.  I part ways a bit on protesting wars.  I prefer that robust discussion and debate happen prior to a nation and her army get committed to the most destructive and debilitating of tasks.  To do so with troops in the field is not treasonous, but those who do so must realize that their actions do impact the morale of soldiers, regardless of how much they claim to support them.  It is the equivalent of booing at a sporting event. The individual athlete may or may not be affected by it but it is certainly less encouraging than being cheered.)

Likewise, Democrats who not long ago not only encouraged dissent but frequently called it the highest form of patriotism, citing Howard Zinn’s (or Thomas Jefferson, if you prefer).  As the faces of those who protested changed, many leading Democrats have labeled town hall participants (as they did the Tea Party attendants) as malcontents, rubes, gun-toting nutjobs or criticized conservative group’s efforts to organize them, apparently forgetting how much liberal organizations did much the same thing during the Bush years.

Here is my take.

 Participants in town hall meetings should be courteous and civil. Passion is fine as long as it does not reflect poorly on the speaker, thus undermining his point or cause, nor should it disrupt the event or inhibit others from speaking.   Booing and cheering and making speeches is for sports crowds and debaters.  Concerned citizens should adopt what I was told in the Army when giving briefings: be brief, be brilliant, be gone.

Personally, I would not bring a firearm to a demonstration, much less one that was near a presidential event, but I can see the merit of someone making a political point by exercising his right to carry one openly.  While guns can induce fear in some, the trepidation it causes is not so much a commentary on the owner as it is on those who are so unfamiliar with firearms.  We rightly criticize people who fear people who are ethnically different than them and do not understand and we should also criticize those who are so opposed to an device about which they know very little about.

Republicans should be very careful about how much they get into bed with unruly town hall participants.  While their frustration level is indicative of legitimate gripes with Congress’ spending habits and pending bills, shrill voices and uninformed voices will add little to the debate and will ultimately be put in an unfavorable light by the visual media.

As for Democrats, they are on thin ice denouncing the rowdy crowds. Not only do they come off as hypocrites but they run the risk of misinterpreting that chorus of discontent as the vocal few.  While some are no doubt professional activists or individuals far outside the mainstream,  I think they are indicative of a growing concern over massive spending during the worst possible time to conduct such spending.   Democrats should realize that many of these people who are taking time out of their lives to attend a political event (itself somewhat, shall we say, un-American) are probably the people that will make the difference in the next Congressional and presidential elections.

 Finally, for the administration I would only advise the President to take heed of what is going on in these town halls.  Acknowledge that the very fact that people are turning out in large numbers for these events is a sign that people are troubled.  Complaining about misinformation is legitimate but a waste of time. In all the speeches and town halls, President Obama has done very little to define what is ultimately a complex problem.  And it is not necessarily his fault just for the fact that there is no true “Obama Health Care” because it is a Frankenstein of sorts, a conglomeration of disparate and enormous bills in two Houses.  How does one inform about and define something which does not really exist?

 I am reminded of comments of both one of my college economics professors and my favorite math teachers in high school.  The former reminded us that, “The market is never wrong.”  You can complain until you are blue in the face that a product is good, or should sell well, or has a certain value but it is all pissing in the wind.  Either the timing is wrong, the product is wrong or the marketing is wrong but the market is not the problem.  Mr Goss, my math teacher frequently said, in a slyly self deprecating way, “If the student has failed to learn, the teacher has failed to teach.”

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Bowler

 
Despite getting your gist, and knowing that common sense dictates that both sides are prone to make the other's hostilities advantageous for propaganda, I just saw Ed Shultz on MSNBC call several Republican representatives "political terrorists".   I'm sorry, but I never saw ANYTHING, ANYTHING even remotely close to this type of over-reaction being carried out by "journalists" or politicians on the right. The worse I've heard is that the drum circle attendees are "unemployed", unwashed hippies. That comes nowhere close to Chris Matthews, Olberman or Shultz's regular rants. I also do not recall CNN ever once mentioning the death-threats and Bush Hitler comparisons when a non-democrat held the highest office.

Outside of an overreaction to the dipsy Dixie Chicks, I'm njot able to recall any of the "they're political terrorists" from the right-wingers I've listened to. P.S. I also recall Bush getting BOO-ed at Obama's inauguration...I don't recall republicans responding similarly. Has Carter ever been booed at a governmental gathering? seriously, has he?

Now, I do over-react on occassion so I guess I could be used as an example.

 
Posted by Bowler on 20 Aug 09 Thursday - 10:22 PM
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Bill

 
I think there's a fair degree of equity between infotainment people like Shultz, Beck, Maddow, Hannity, Limbaugh, Olbermann and others when it comes to name calling and hyperbole.  And there seems to be no bounds. Even O'Reilly, whose style and opinion I generally like gets very loose with words like hate, pinhead, loon, etc. 

But I agree that as far as fairness and temperment, conservatives tend to tamp down the excesses better than their liberal counterparts (especially among more serious talking heads) or at the very least will cede a point, give credit where credit is due, or denounce extremists.  While some people overemphasize Limbaugh's "I hope he fails" comments (and don't put them in the right context), rarely do those same people mention how guys like Beck, OReilly, Scarbarough have been very fair about Obama and go out of their way not to act like those who spoke about Bush with such vitriol.

There is a new anger in the air and a severe lack of civility on the airwaves.  This has been exemplified in town halls and then again in the reaction to them (by major leaders in the Democratic party no less).  I think this is the backlash of the Internet and the blogging phenomenon.  People say outrageous things with anonymity and then others read it and regurgitate it.  The whole process mushrooms because people tend to go to sites to reinforce their own point of view and the most outlandish posts get the most commentary.  Now the pundits and politicians apparently feel comfortable using the same stuff that most folks used to only be comfortable with hiding behind their monitor.

Man, the whole Hitler thing has taken off...What happened to Godwin's Rule?  Yes, I agree, the Nazi and Hitler analogies were used constantly by the Left the last eight years but somehow we only hear about it now in the context of town halls.
 
Posted by Bill on 20 Aug 09 Thursday - 10:58 PM
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Aaron

 
I don't know if I can agree with you on this one, mainly because I can say from personal experience that average people ARE really mad about what Obama and the Democratic Congress is trying to do.  Even some of my family members who voted for Obama are skeptical of his programs.  Why?  Not necessarily because someone told them to be, but more so because they are finding it hard to trust an Administration who goes out of its way to scare people into accepting HUGE and IMMEDIATE change.  That's a huge problem.

Firstly, when I was in school, I remember the anti-war protests when they began.  The one we had on campus and the one downtown WERE organized by the Socialist Party.  Our campus's protest had about 12 attendants, the one downtown was marginally bigger, but the local media covered it as if it were something MUCH bigger (only showing footage of all attendants clumped together to appear like more people were sympathetic.)  Today, however, I have relatives who never belonged to any organization who are just fed-up with the spending and with the whole use of deception to sneak bills into law overnight.  These people want their voices heard, and in my opinion, many high-profile Democrats are doing more to marginalize the opposition than to create an strong argument for their case (which I believe them to either not have, or they do have, but you wouldn't like it.)

Secondly, there is also a big difference between Bush going to war in Iraq, and the knee-jerk reactions of the Obama administration.  With Iraq, Bush rallied Congress, went to the U.N., and gave Hussein 8 months to come clean and comply with the demands of the international community.  Obama gave us about two weeks to debate his stimulus spending bill (during which, his only arguments to defend it were that the Republicans want to do nothing (not true), and that if we didn't do it, unemployment would rise higher than 9.5% (it is higher now).)  With the Health Care bill, you are right.  They haven't even really come up with a bill.  So my question then is, "how can you vote on a bill that does not exist?"  This is what Obama was trying to do before the August recess.  So either a bill DID exist, or they just planned on winging it.  Either way, I think it is very dangerous to make a huge decision like this that will affect our lives indefinitely without proper planning and debate.

Finally, I blame Obama's administration more than anything for the reaction it is causing.  I strongly believe the reaction that we are seeing in town halls is directly related to a sense of urgency.  People have already seen how quickly the administration pushed through his stimulus, and they are afraid that the same thing will happen with Health Care, unless people speak up, and they speak up loud and clear.  There obviously was no time for civil debate with the first big spending bill (probably intentionally the White House's plan), and people do not want to get screwed again.  I think that this is part of their strategy.  They want to pass these things before people even know what they are.  They feel that if people come-out and speak-out, they can always marginalize them.  However it is beginning to backfire on them.

As for the Nazi comparison, I do remember the media showing liberal protestors with signs of Bush as Hitler.  The big difference, however, was the way they wish to report it.  With Obama, they report it as an outrage:  basically, how could anyone ever stoop so low to compare our president with Hitler?  With Bush, however, they reported it in a manner to show viewers how many people hate Bush, and to build sympathy for the protestors.  Just yesterday, I heard people talking about how they are outraged that Rush Limbaugh said that Barney Frank came from Uranus.  What was more disturbing was how the radio host did not seem to have a problem with the way Frank addressed the person at his town hall meeting, asking the person what planet are you from?  Can you give me any example of a time were Bush ever got this derogatory towards a constituent to spoke out against him?  And if he did, would the press report it in the same manner?

 
Posted by Aaron on 21 Aug 09 Friday - 02:53 PM
[Reply to this
Bill

 
...... ....
  ....I not so sure we disagree.  My beef is mostly with the way politicians and news personalities are blatantly inconsistent, It's ok if I do X because I had a good reason but if my opponent does there's only a cynical/political reason to do so.

I don't deny there is real anger out there.  I fervently believe that there is justifyable outrage and said as much. Without a doubt the Obama honeymoon is over and the hangover of the TARP, stimulus, auto takeovers has taken effect and adding "health care reform" (or whatever they are calling it now) is like someone handing you a beer on New Year's Day.

What I find disingenous are the politicians and pundits who act like home town fans.  It's *always* a bad call, my team is *always* right, the other team is *always* cheating. I know that's how things are in politics and the media but once in a while I gag on it.


The parallels between Iraq and Obama's spending are there but I agree that nuance is a must.  Somehow someone has hijacked the history of the buildup to the invasion of Iraq and reduced it to "Bush said they have WMD and then he invaded."  Hardly.

And I don't disagree that the administration has mangled their chances of passing significant health care reform and  possibly poisoned the well for future legislation.  They used the chaos of the moment to pass what they considered necessary steps to save the economy (whether it was viable is another issue) and also a lot of garbage (Schumer admitted as much on the floor of the Senate).  That sense of urgency has worn off as the economy takes some mild positive turns (but I'm convinced it's a very temporary situation due tot he massive spending and actions by the Fed) and the Chicken Little cry of "Pass it, quick! Don't read it, just pass it." isn't fooling anyone any more.

......
 
Posted by Bill on 23 Aug 09 Sunday - 09:05 PM
[Reply to this
Aaron

 
Oh I'm not saying that we totally disagree.  I just find it interesting how much easier it is for conservative-leaning moderates to admit both sides have problems than it is for liberal leaning people.  In their minds, the only reason why Obama has passed the spending bills he has passed so far and why we need Obama's health care reform is because George W. Bush screwed things up so badly that we have no other choice.  (Regardless of the fact that these bills all appear to actually empower government more than anything else.)

As you know, I've never trusted Obama, mainly because my read into his early writings, the people who he chose to hang around with and the legislation (or lack-thereof) that he had previously tried to push through all pointed at a person with a pretty messed-up agenda.  In Obama's eyes, the world would be a better place if EVERYONE had exactly the same (Communism with a big C).  He says he's for capitalism, but he also blames it for most of the pain in the world.  He says he supports allowing people to have private insurance while he pushes to create a public option that would be subsidized by taxes, which would naturally make it too hard for private organizations to compete.  His stimulus bill was basically a way to give local governments money to continue to pay-off voters through giving them jobs that may or may not be necessary.

I think there is a HUGE difference between giving a president a chance, and letting a president run wild and push through MAJOR change which may affect us indefinitely without any real oversight.  Again, I think people are becoming outraged because they already saw what happened back in February when we gave him a chance and let him push the Economic Recovery Act through Congress.  They also know that there isn't a lot of time (given the short span of time it took them to push that thing through), so they are reacting quickly to at least slow things down and require the president to explain himself, which he still really hasn't.  Instead, he comes out with flat-out lies ("those who oppose my plans aren't coming up with ones of their own" or "AARP supports this plan" or "There are no 'death panels' in any bill, instead we have a 'panel of experts' who will decided whether or not you receive the treatments you need, based on cost analysises and broad statistics.")

I Just think that Obama is trying to capitalize on the fact that many of the people who would normally be outraged by his plans are still willing to give him a chance, basing their reasoning on some assumption that in the past, new presidents did not make massive change like this, this early in their careers, or because they want to look fair.  I think he's just playing that percentage of the population, and I'm hoping they wake up and realize how bad some of these ideas (and some of the people he has close in his administration -- particularly some of his czars) really are.

 
Posted by Aaron on 25 Aug 09 Tuesday - 10:09 PM
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Bill

 
Yeah, I'm really sick of the "we inherited this mess" whining. It got old real fast.  It seems that he never misses a moment to get a dig in on his predecessor (whom he did not even run against...well, technically didn't). It's fine during a campaign but unseemly for a president, much less a sitting one.  Hey, BO, EVERY president inherits things good and bad from their predecessors.

Speaking of that, I caught on Morning Joe a few weeks back when they interviewed the two authors of that book about the 2008 campaign, that Axelrod called him out on his political hide.  It was a seiminal moment in which he warned him that he needed to get a thicker skin.  I don't think he's taken heed of that particualr observation and advice.
 

Similar to how his early writings made an impression on you, what sticks out in my mind is that moment in the campaign, which caused a bit of stir at the time, when he compared past presidents. He got in trouble with the left for admitting that Reagan was far more transformative than Bill Clinton. I think now that it's clear that he wants to change thing in a big way, regardless of the costs (if I recall correctly, Reagan was/is criticized at the cost of building up the armed forces and other spending during the 80s as well).  He has taken a big gamble which may cost him a second term.  It seems that people are pulling out the daze after the shock of 15 Sep 08 and it's subsequent stimuli and bailouts, and are increasingly wary of "spending to save."

 
Posted by Bill on 28 Aug 09 Friday - 01:22 PM
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