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Bert Gary



Last Updated: 11/22/2009

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Gender: Male
Status: Single
Age: 51
Sign: Sagittarius

City: Arcadia
State: California
Country: US
Signup Date: 6/12/2006

Who Gives Kudos:


Thursday, September 24, 2009 

Category: Religion and Philosophy

Where is my grandmother (1908-2007)?



Photo of “Minkie,” Christmas 2000(?) with clockwise from left: me, bro Mike, sis Susan, bro Bill


I no longer have any living grandparents. Homer Gary died of pneumonia in 1936 so, sadly, I never knew him. Gussie Gary died at the age of 96 in 1992. Bob Segers died of a heart attack at the age of 82 in 1986. And Susan Segers died in her sleep shy of her 100th birthday on November 1, 2007.


As firstborn grandkids often do, I nicknamed my grandmother. I was a toddler. I’d been to the doctor, and he had a picture of Mickey Mouse on the exam room door. I got Mickey Mouse and Grandma mixed up in my little brain, and I called her Minkie Ma. The name Minkie stuck. (Or should I say Susan Segers got stuck with the name Minkie?)


Everyone reading this has likely lost a loved one. And we Christians have attended funerals where bold assertions are made about where our deceased loved ones are right now. That’s what I want to write about here. And I want to make it personal. I want to ask the question, Where is Minkie right now?


Because we’re all stuck here in the flow of time, there seems to be a time gap in our Christian belief in resurrection on the last day, doesn’t there? It is a gap between our deaths and our future resurrections. This time gap has bothered Christians for centuries, and many explanations have been invented to account for it.


Keeping it personal, Minkie passed away in 2007. Her resurrection will occur on the last day, according to Scripture. But what about the meantime? What about now? If my grandmother is dead and buried, where is she until* the resurrection of the dead on the last day promised by Jesus?

1. Is her soul dead, too, until* resurrection day?


2. Is her soul asleep until* resurrection day?

3. Did her soul leave her body and go to an “intermediate heaven" until* resurrection day? (see my other blogs: Paul didn't go to heaven; The psychic medium of Endor was a fake; and The soul doesn't leave the body at death)

4. Did her soul get an “intermediate body” (a loaner body?) to wear until* her buried body can be resurrected and her soul reunited with it? (The loaner body must be disposable.)

5. Did her soul go to Purgatory to wait and to be purified until* resurrection day?

6. Did her soul go to Limbo to remain a wanderer or be punished until* resurrection day?

*UNTIL - a temporal term you have to use if you think of time in Newtonian terms.

None of these six imaginative inventions are in Christian scripture. I want to take a fresh look at the question of where the dead are right now. I want to propose that we look at time differently—a way that makes none of these biblically foreign inventions (1-6 above) necessary. And, strangely enough, Albert Einstein helps us see a biblical answer to our question.


Is there a tiny span of time when it seems to me experientially that Minkie is in the ground and nowhere else until the resurrection day promised by the Bible? Yes. But the important word is "seems" from an eternal, biblical perspective and from Einstein’s perspective, which “coincidentally” agrees.


I admit, here in the seeming flow of time, Minkie is seemingly no where else but in the ground, body and soul. That is, of course, not a very comforting prospect for me, as one who loved her. But I don’t believe that it’s true. Albert Einstein’s mind-blowing explanation of time, believe it or not, which most people have never heard or understood, illustrates a biblical view of time.



From Einstein’s paradoxical perspective, Minkie is a toddler learning to walk right now, she’s giving birth to my mother right now, she’s being nicknamed by me right now, she’s burying Papa right now, she’s dying in the nursing home right now, and she’s risen with the Lord at the future general resurrection promised by Scripture right now.

Each of these Minkies, every Minkie-moment, if you will, is literally in the spacetime loaf of our universe, all past moments, the present moment, and all future moments. All here. All happening. All real. In God’s universe, the one Einstein tried to explain to us Newtonian terrestrials, everything is happening.
  
Moses and Elijah, for example, visiting Jesus at the transfiguration are not ghosts, Scripture insists, but are men who are glorified. That means that they are resurrected human beings. But if the resurrection of the dead is a future event, how could Moses and Elijah already be raised? It’s because the resurrection slice is in the universe-loaf from the beginning. These glorified men not only visited from somewhere else. They visited from some-when else.


You can’t think chronologically to see this. You have to try to see the whole. Resurrection seemed like a "not yet" moment at the time to Peter, James, and John on that mountain with the glorified (resurrected) Moses and Elijah and Jesus standing before them. But the “not yet resurrection” revealed its truth to them by breaking into their present from the future.


Resurrection day seems like a “not yet” moment to us now too, an event disconnected from us in a distant, unknowable future. But from God’s universal eternity, and in Einstein’s universe that IS, a universe that IS happening, a universe that IS whole and complete, the future resurrection has happened, is happening, and will happen. It was and is and is to come, now and forever.


I’m going to give an analogy that helps me, but first, here is a key insight from what Einstein has taught us. Our universe does not just contain every where. It also contains every when, including (if you believe Scripture) the future resurrection day. Space (all wheres) and time (all whens) are inseparable. If all wheres exist, then all whens must exist, because space and time are one thing designated by one word: spacetime. Our universe is spacetime. Everywhere and everywhen compose our physical universe.


In spacetime, however, we creatures are only wired to experience one "now" at a time in the seeming flow of chronological time. But time doesn't really flow. Your past is really still here in our universe, not just a memory. Your future is here in our universe, though you haven't experienced it yet. Our universe includes all space and all time.


Here’s an illustration that helps me visualize this. Picture a movie theater strip on a platter (a horizontal reel—pictured), let’s say the movie Titanic. Here are Jack and Rose in a single frame from the movie.





We experience a movie one frame at a time as it passes in front of a projector lamp. But that doesn't mean that every frame we've already seen isn't still sitting up in the projection booth on a platter (pictured). Nor does it mean that every frame we're about to see isn't sitting up there in the projection booth on another platter. The movie, every frame, is whole and complete up there, but we can only experience it now-frame by now-frame.


We experience time like this because of our human, creaturely, design limitations. But the risen Jesus has no such limitations in the Bible. Neither does anyone resurrected. As the Apostle Paul insists, we will be like him in resurrection, and the risen Jesus is not bound by space and time.


Do you see the problem? Just because we perceive the universe one “highlighted now” at a time, argue physicists, does not mean that the universe exists in this way.


It flies in the face of our experience, but the physical universe appears to be one big present mega-moment. What we call past, present, and future all resound equally together across the vastness of all space and time. The Loaf shows no partiality to any one moment. It is we who do that. All nows are equal in the eyes of the universe. It is not so for us. That seems to be because we are designed to experience one note at a time. With one note at a time, we can we hear the melody. Without it, all the notes blare at us in unison dissonance.


So the universe is complete. Everything is happening in here. We live in a vast “eternal now.” And there are many "you moments" in our universe, all of them you, and all of them real, from your birth to your death to your resurrection.


Have you ever wondered, How can the risen Lamb of God be slain from the foundation of the world if the crucifixion and resurrection didn't happen until around 30 AD? It sounds contradictory. This biblical claim flies in the face of a conventional view of chronological time.


If the universe contains every when, however, then what we believe is the key event in the history of the universe---the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus---is the key "now" among all nows that exist from eternity---from Alpha to Omega. A man born around 8 B.C. and executed around 30 A.D. is slain from the foundation of the world? Scripture says yes.


The reason that Jesus can be "slain from the foundation of the world" is because the whole of the universe (past, present, and future) came into existence whole. When the universe came into existence, it wasn’t just all wheres that came into existence. All whens came into existence too, including the crucifixion. The crucifixion of Jesus, the pivotal moment in our universe as we Christians see it, was and is and always will be present to the whole. It’s the linchpin moment in a forever-complete salvation-history.


From this perspective, the crucifixion-now can be seen as "simultaneous" with the creation-now and with the last-day-resurrection-now. They're all here together in the spacetime loaf, the complete physical universe, all whens from beginning to end are just here.



Consider this the key point: I see no problem with what Jesus means when he speaks from the cross, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise. Luke 23:43) The Lord is present to every day in the universe. They are all his simultaneous todays. And when we experience our death-nows as he did, we "skip" or "fast-forward" instantaneously to our joint resurrection-now with him. Therefore, the today of our deaths is literally the today of our resurrections. ( That's because from a heavenly perspective as well as an Einsteinian perspective, both days (like all days) are eternally simultaneous.


So when resurrection-Jesus popped in on the disciples behind locked doors, he wasn't just appearing from some-where else. He was also appearing from some-when else: the future resurrection of the dead. He transcended space and time to appear to his friends. He transcends spacetime still. He reigns over all spacetime in his kingdom of heaven. He is the resurrection. He is the Alpha (A) and the Omega (W....).




All this is to say that Minkie, the finest Scrabble player who ever lived, is both in the ground and alive forevermore at the future resurrection of the dead. She is dead yet alive. The kicker is, if the Bible and Einstein are correct about creation, then in our universe right now I am at the future resurrection of the dead with Minkie too, and so are you.



Leroy
Leroy Noffsinger

 
I wondered Bert why in my dream state, I met two members of my family that had been aborted.
One was aborted about 5 years before I met and she appeared to be about 5 years old. The was aborted about 21 years ago and she appeared to be about 21 years old.

  Thus in the where and when of time they do exist, therefore, my family, as will all other families, will be made whole in the end.

  Does this fit in with what you are saying?

  Leroy

   
 
Posted by Leroy on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 6:51 PM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 
Exactly, Leroy. I think this explains a lot of phenomena that we have simply misunderstood and misnamed.

For example, insofar as people claim to be seeing dead relatives, and if we assume these experiences to be real, then what I believe they are seeing is resurrected people visiting our present-time from the future resurrection.

Another example is "near death experiences." These are assumed by people to be out-of-body-experiences, meaning that their souls are leaving their bodies. But since it is a fact that this notion is from pagan ancient Greece and not the Bible, I'm rather suspicious of it.

However, since there are many Bert-nows in this universe, and as a Christian I believe that the resurrection on the last day is a real now-moment in this universe, then perhaps the shift in spacetime from death-moment-Bert to resurrection-day-Bert explains theses "near death experiences."

Maybe it's not Bert's soul leaving his body at death, but Bert (soul and body inseparable) moving from death to life, from death-moment to resurrection-moment, from one now in spacetime to the last now.

I've heard many reports like yours, Leroy. I've come to believe in the reality of visitation. But I don't see them in terms of Plato's immortality of the soul, or in terms of disembodied spirits, but as real visits from flesh-and-blood-resurrected people who live in our universe, just in a future place-time.

Yes, to use your words: "In the where and when of time they do exist."

---Bert



 
Posted by Bert Gary on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 7:11 PM
[Reply to this
incognito!!!!
Teresa McKee

 
I like this--it makes sense, but it makes the Bible an even bigger problem for me. Why was it
written in a linear fashion?

Also, I just wanted to say this: when my nephew was killed in a tragic car wreck, he visited his
mother on two occasions --sat beside her in the car and without speaking gave her information
that she needed. Could this have been her mind in hallucination because she so needed to hear from
him--of course it could be. However, my nephew also appeared on the bed aside my very atheist
dad. He was shaking and white faced like he'd seen a ghost! Well, needless to say--within a few
days, my dad had figured it all out--he'd imagined it because he missed his nephew so much!
But did he really imagine it????????????????????????? ; )   hugs, T

Minkie is adorable!!!!

 
Posted by incognito!!!! on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 7:29 PM
[Reply to this
Janet (Grams)
Janet Gary

 
Teresa,
I love your story about your beloved nephew appearing to his mother.  I have heard many such stories, personally. from friends and family, and each was comforted in a way that allowed them to grieve, let go, and continue to live their lives.  I don't really care anymore what the explanation is for these events; I am simply grateful that they occur and make life livable for the survivors of such tragedies. I would love to meeet you.
Janet Gary (Bert's mom)
 
Posted by Janet (Grams) on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 9:12 PM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 

Teresa, will you read my brief reply to Leroy above about visits from resurrected people?

Concerning the biblical view of time being exclusively linear, it’s not. The examples I gave in the blog demonstrate this. But even better, the Book of Revelation---in stark contrast to the errors of linear literalists---is anything but linear chronology.

Jesus is already crucified and arisen in Revelation 5, but he's born in Revelation 12! That can happen because revelation tells the same story of Jesus (It's called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ") over and over (six times, to be precise) using varying symbolic images:

1. Key Vision: The Throne, the Scroll, & the Lamb (Ch. 4-5)

2. Seven Seals (Ch. 6-7)

3. Seven Trumpets (Ch. 8-11)

4. Seven Visions (Ch. 12-14)

5. Seven Bowls (Ch. 15-16)

6. Seven Final Visions (Ch. 17-22:7)

 

Each of these six sections reveal Jesus’ story in ever-changing, ever-expanding symbols. It’s a six-fold repetition. It’s not chronological at all. Each of these six visions within a grand vision tell us about Jesus, what he has accomplished, and what it mean’s to John’s suffering churches in seven Roman-ruled cities of late 1st century Asia Minor.

 

(This outline of six repeating visions within a grand vision is from a commentary I’m writing on Revelation.)


 
Posted by Bert Gary on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 10:38 PM
[Reply to this
Bella Principessa

 
Hmmmm. Something to think about, Bert....Am tryin' to wrap my mind around this one. So could this explain the 'tunnel experience', and seeing one's whole life 'flash' before you when one dies? (experiencing life all at once?)

 
Posted by Bella Principessa on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 8:14 PM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 
Yes, Bella. That's what I'm seeing. Read my reply to Leroy above for an explanation along the lines you suggest.
 
Posted by Bert Gary on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 8:15 PM
[Reply to this
Steve NTL

 
Very difficult concepts for folks with fixed points of reference, Bert, but you have done very well in laying it out.  Thanks.

 
Posted by Steve NTL on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 9:45 PM
[Reply to this
Bob
Bob Harkema

 
Good stuff (as always Bert).  Now how can I use this to keep the wife happy?  Maybe future time me could compliment her yesterday for the things I will not notice tomorrow? 

In any event I do think you are onto something and once the future me reads it I am sure the now me will help him use it to deal with the chronologically linear challenged pharisees I seem to run across so often. 

 
Posted by Bob on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 10:30 PM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 
Bob, this may be the best blog comment I've ever received. Dude, that is messed up! Let me follow suit.

Future-you read your excellent blog comment before you wrote it, and . . .

Your future-wife saw through your plot to compliment her yesterday for things you didn't notice today and forgave you for it before you did it!

Thanks, bud.

 
Posted by Bert Gary on Thursday, September 24, 2009 - 10:35 PM
[Reply to this
Cindy

 
This is an excellent description of the eternal moment!

I sometimes look at it as though I were in a library. Books of past, present, and futures all collected in one place of apparent time. Pull a book off of the shelf and you are there. But the other books are available as well, just not in use at the moment. But they do co-exist.

Moments for me are marked places/times of experiences. Recorded in "chronological" order for ease of reference. Just like the Bible. Not originally written in "verse". But marked as such for ease of reference. 

Each moment is truly folding in upon itself. We could never grasp such a concept and still learn of existence as children of such a Supreme Power. God knows this.  We are nursing the bottle, then taking in soft food, and eventually being nourished by bread. But we are babies in this universe. And we need to be raised according to our level of new cognitive experience and comprehension of such. 

Moving into the next moment. Which is not really a moment at all. Just an experience. Unrestricted by time and space. Just another cognitive recognition of what is, what was and what shall be. Recognition of God and all of His INFINITE knowledge. A recognition of a moment marked only by a simple method of linear order. For ease of reference. And our learning.   

So! I loved the blog! It is true. But, it is sometimes just to big to think about. huh, Bert? 
 
Posted by Cindy on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 5:19 AM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 
I like the library analogy, Cindy. If we're in a library, we can only read a word at a time, but the whole library is still here.

The author of a novel, likewise, can see the whole, but we can't experience that whole unless we read it one word at a time. So the passage of time is our way of reading the universe. We process the spacetime loaf one thin slice at a time by experiencing one highlighted present at a time. The whole loaf is here, but we can't possibly make sense of the whole thing at once, not yet anyway.

This is a frustrating thing, in a way, because I think I'm wired to want to know the whole, and I'm impatient to know it now! On the other hand, there is enjoyment in the process of reading, experiencing the story word by word, sentence by sentence, page by page. There's anticipation and tension and then discovery and learning. It's not all impatience to get to the end. There's pleasure in the reading.

We are, in a sense, still children, as you say. But perhaps you are right that we are being nurtured by one who cares about our development. If the gospel is to be trusted, then we are being nurtured by one who loves us enough to become one of us, to honor and bless our journey by sharing it, to walk shoulder to shoulder with us in the struggle, to taste death and live so that we may join him "in the fullness of time."

 
Posted by Bert Gary on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 6:02 AM
[Reply to this
Hillbilly Ron
Ron Morgan

 
Hey if this ain't all the way right it sure is closer than anything I've heard so far.  Seems like it takes thinking about our loved ones that are dead before we need an explanation that makes sense better than what present reality seems to say.  I love this understanding but my mind almost tilts when I think further as in what happens further beyond where this truth takes us.  As in forever.  Thank you for sharing this.  It makes me feel free and good. 
 
Posted by Hillbilly Ron on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 6:21 PM
[Reply to this
David Foreman
David Foreman

 
So, in this view, if the "whole" already is, does not that give easy passage to a "so what" attitude?  Does this view lend itself to predestination to the point of whatever decisions I need to make have already been made, so why put any time into making them?  Did I have to write this sentence because I've already written it?  Is there no choice?
 
Posted by David Foreman on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 8:32 PM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 

David, I'm having this discussion with a facebook friend, so I hope you'll forgive me for pasting some of it here. I like to write, but I don't have a problem with avoiding duplication if it saves time! You're question deserves a good reply.


I'm a big fan of free will. For us in the flow of time, as I see it, our choices are real. But for God (and resurrected persons) to know the future doesn't mean, as I see it, that our choices aren't real every day in the seeming flow of time. I see our future choices as foreknown, not predetermined.


Jesus seems to struggle mightily with a choice. Does he stay in
Gethsemane and get arrested, or does he run for cover? Was his choice real? Why would he fake a struggle if his choice was predetermined? Even if he knew he was the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, would that foreknowledge negate his choice or his struggle in that moment in the garden?

 

The future's existence is provable and assumed in physics. So that's not up for discussion, though I can steal an explanation and analogy from Brian Greene to demonstrate this fact. (I'm no physicist.) Biblically, however? The best example I can thing of for demonstrating that foreknowledge is not predetermination is in John's Apocalypse. It has to do with his book of life symbol.

While John says you can get your name blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, he gives no instructions on how to get it in there. That's because all the other books of deed condemn everybody and the Lamb's grace book forgives everybody. Everybody's name starts out in the grace book.

If you don’t want grace, however, because you hate God, or you want to perpetrate evil, or if you just think it’s unfair of God to save/forgive people who aren’t as good as you, then you have the right of refusal. You can self-blot.

But John also says that there are some people whose names were not written in the book of Life from the foundation of the world. It looks like, and really is, a contradiction---IF you don't see time the way John does, which is the missing piece for me. Here’s what I hear John saying:

1. From the Lamb’s perspective, all names are in his book of Life originally, affirming his gift of Life and redemption to all.
2. Yet we can by our choosing get our names blotted out, affirming God’s gift of choice for all too.
3. But at the same time, from God’s vantage point, the blotted names were never in the Lamb’s book to begin with.

I don't think this is predeterminism. God doesn’t create some folks just so he can hate and damn them. He allows self-condemnation and self-judgment to operate freely within our temporal flow. From your temporal perspective, the question is: Do you embrace the Life he gives or not? From his eternal perspective, however, he is from the beginning aware of who the blotters will eventually be, just as Jesus was aware from the beginning, it seems, that Judas, for example, was a betrayer. Jesus didn’t create Judas just to damn him. He made him and loved him and chose him and taught him. Judas may have damned himself (Who am I to judge?), but Jesus’ foreknowledge didn’t cause it. Therefore:

1. From the Alpha perspective (the beginning of time), all names begin in the book of life.
2. Yet in the course of time (our present, temporal life-spans), some choose to blot their names out by rejecting Life.
3. But at the same time, from the Omega perspective (the end of time), the blotters’ names were never in the book of life to begin with.

It sounds contradictory, I know. John’s paradoxical time perspective doesn’t fit neatly into our western, Enlightenment, Newtonian mindset. But it’s John’s intention to express 1) the universal gift of Life and atonement, and 2) the gift of human free will, and 3) the foreknowledge of God (not the predetermination of God) concerning who chooses Life and who doesn’t.


I agree that predetermination yields apathy and despair. But I don't think foreknowledge does.


What do you think?

 


 
Posted by Bert Gary on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 8:48 PM
[Reply to this
David Foreman
David Foreman

 
What do I think?  I try not to.  It hurts.    

Traditionally, the response is that, although foreknowledge is not predestination, the end result is the same.  If God (as the argument goes) knows what I'm going to choose, and God cannot be wrong, then I have no choice but to choose that which He already knows I will.  So, personally, I can't see a whole lot of difference.  What I frequently fall back on when I reach these moments, is that we don't really know very much.  I mean, seriously, in the scheme of things, the difference between a 2-month old baby and a calculus professor is absolutely nothing compared to the difference between what we know and what God knows.  Of course, I'll still try to understand as much as I can, but I truly believe one of the best pieces of knowledge is that we don't know it all.


 
Posted by David Foreman on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 9:33 PM
[Reply to this
Re-Union

 
Still, having made the previous comments (David Foreman), in many ways, what you're saying makes a lot of sense.  I do enjoy reading your thoughts and insights.  Question:  Since this approach is not what we've heard a lot of, what seemed to initially get you going in this direction?

 
Posted by Re-Union on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 10:21 PM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 

Hey, Re-union (cool name). Being raised in the Bible belt means swimming in modern evangelicalism. I know the pond pretty well. I knew growing up, somehow, that some things about what they believed and did did not add up with Scripture, which is weird because modern evangelicalism prides itself on, if nothing else, being scriptural!

I went to seminary and learned some things, but after seminary as I taught and preached scripture weekly I began to find real answers there that, as I suspected, contradicted conventional Bible Belt belief. At first it was a crisis in my preaching and teaching because I was afraid to contradict what most everybody believed about salvation, judgment, heaven, hell, etc. But at some point, I threw caution to the wind. Jesus Unplugged was a product of that liberating process. So is Heaven for Skeptics, not yet published. So are two other books about 75% finished each, one on hell and one on Revelation. (Some of my blogs are excerpts from these works adapted for the internet.)

I have a love affair with science, too, so in my research for Heaven for Skeptics I read some books by Davies, Greene, Hawking, and and others looking for what I suspected was an important connection. These physicists helped me articulate my suspicion that time was the key to articulating biblical resurrection. At the same time, I studied the few verses that are used to support the immortality of the soul and the soul leaving the body at death. I discovered that this interpretation is wrong, and I discovered that Plato's immortality of the soul was imported into Christian theology by the likes of Augustine and Aquinas.

Holding Plato's hand, they moved judgment and heaven and hell to the individual's immediate moment of death when his Platonic soul leaves his body, rather than sticking with biblical resurrection of the whole person on the last day somewhere way down the road. This had an unexpected effect on ecclesiastical maintenance:

 

Individual judgment of the soul the moment the body dies added immediacy and urgency to salvation, which of course they preached depended entirely upon the blessing of the church. And how do you get the blessing of the church so as to avoid hell and gain heaven for your disembodied soul immediately upon death? Attendance and giving!

 

Fear of death and immediate threat of hell are the primary method of evangelism still today. They call it biblical, and believe it’s biblical. But it’s wrong, and it’s spiritually abusive. This was a calling from God for me personally. I’m compelled to challenge a 1,500-year-old cycle of abuse. I read that 80% of children molested become molesters. I don’t know if that’s accurate, but the principle is undoubtedly true. I think it’s worth it to try and break the chain.

 


 
Posted by Bert Gary on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 10:43 PM
[Reply to this
Re-Union

 
Sounds like there are some similarities in our stories.  If you've read much of my stuff, you probably already know that I was once very active in organized religion.  I know with no doubt that God used me and blessed me there.  He's really good about that.  But slowly, I began a journey that ultimately led my wife and I out of that environment.  I have friends and loved ones still there.  They still love God, and God still loves, blesses, and cares for them.  Some understand.  Most don't, but still love me.  We've all believed something that later we came to see as untrue.  That's just part of the journey.  You're writings, for me, are another part.  As I tell everyone, we will not always agree, but so what.  Keep up the good work.  BTW, if you'd like a free copy of our last CD, just let me know where to send it.  Keep up the good work.  I'm sure we'll be in touch.

 
Posted by Re-Union on Friday, September 25, 2009 - 11:53 PM
[Reply to this
Jenine
Jenine Warren

 
Honestly we don't perfectly know where she is. I know this may not give you much comfort we can only go by what the bible says. When people genuinely accept Jesus as their Lord and savior and they hold to this in their heart then when they die they are in heaven with Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:1-11
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. They await the final ressurection/judgement at the appointed time. During the rapture their spirits are reunited with their physical bodies.

She would now have a spiritual body in heaven. According to the king james version of the bible excluding catholicism, the bible doesn't teach pergatory. Hades/sheol was comprised of two distinctly different places that were near or next to each other divided by a river. After death, Hell was the side people went to if they rejected God. Paradise being the place where people went if they recieved God. When jesus ascended from Hades he brought paradise with him and put it in a different place to purify it with his blood. It is now in the heavenlies vs where it use to be in the Earth. Now only hell remains in our beneath the Earth. 


I hope this helps love you brother.

 
Posted by Jenine on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 6:30 PM
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Bert Gary

 
Jenine, I mean to express concern for you, not judgment, whan I say that this comment is alarming enough to me that I almost didn't allow it.

But because I appreciate your coming here to read and comment, and because I believe this is your first time here, I want to extend full hospitality to you. Welcome!

And you seem sincere and well-meaning, Jenine, and I appreciate your expressions of concern and affection. But please bear with me as I struggle honestly with the content of this comment.

I think the thing that concerns me most about this comment is that it adds words to verse 8 that aren't in the Bible, and goes so far as to use red bold font for both what Paul wrote and what you (or someone) added. Perhaps this was unintentional.

You need to know that your rapid-fire definitions and pronouncements about heaven, paradise, sheol, hell, etc. are just not accurate. I'm sure you've been told by someone from a pulpit or in a book that what you've written is entirely biblical. But it's not.

I know you have no reason today to trust me instead of the person(s) who misinformed you. But I have no reason to lie to you either.

Also, Jenine, I believe that learning is a lifelong process. We're all in this process. And if I haven't hurt your feelings too much to consider this suggestions, I'd like your feedback on what I wrote about the passage you quoted. It's in a previous blog: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=84945367&blogId=488426687

I mean no disrespect and hope you'll receive this in the spirit it was intended.

---Bert

 
Posted by Bert Gary on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 8:29 PM
[Reply to this
Re-Union

 
But if the soul isn't immortal, then God can't damn us to hell.  If God can't damn us to hell, what hope do we have of controling others?!?!? 
 
Posted by Re-Union on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 5:01 AM
[Reply to this
Bert Gary

 
You are a bad man, sir. I congratulate you!


 
Posted by Bert Gary on Sunday, September 27, 2009 - 5:14 AM
[Reply to this
Janet (Grams)
Janet Gary

 
This is so wonderful!  The photo is one of my very favorites of the family  photos.  Thanks for using it!
--Mom
 
Posted by Janet (Grams) on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 9:12 PM
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