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Well, That's What I Think Anyways...

triple



Last Updated: 11/26/2009

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Gender: Male
Status: Married
Age: 35
Sign: Capricorn

City: SAN DIEGO
State: California
Country: US
Signup Date: 2/12/2005

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June 27, 2009 - Saturday 

Category: Religion and Philosophy
Posted by Valentine Technocracy on May 28, 2009 - Thursday - 11:02 PM 
Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, thus the sum total of energy in the universe stays the same. Nothing just Pops into existence "Ala Creation", energy simply changes forms.



Posted by triple on June 7, 2009 - Sunday - 3:03 PM 
why do you say that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. how do you know this?



Posted by Valentine Technocracy on June 13, 2009 - Saturday - 3:48 PM
Because scientist have been trying to prove otherwise for three hundred years with no success. It's the fundamental law of the conservation of energy Triple, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The great thing about this claim is that it's falsifiable, but has never been falsified.

Energy is never created nor destroyed, it is only converted. Let's say I have a piece of coal, how would I go about destroying it? If I crushed it I'd just be scattering the energy about in smaller parts or condensing the energy, if I burned it I would only be converting the molecular energy into other forms of energy (heat mostly) and that energy released from the burning of the coal would happily absorb into other molecular structures and energize them. So by burning the coal I may be creating heat, light, and smoke and gas but I wouldn't be creating new energy, I would only be transforming energy between states.

Now we have no logical reason to believe that energy can be created or destroyed. Everything that begins and everything that ends is the process by which energy changes form. Think about this next time you're eating.



Posted by triple on June 14, 2009 - Sunday - 8:26 AM 
very interesting.  have you tried this experiment of transforming energy of coal to verify this?

Posted by triple on June 14, 2009 - Sunday - 8:28 AM 
Oh and I I almost forgot.  I understand that this is a law of TD.  But the other part of the question which I think is important was "how do you know this?"



Posted by Valentine Technocracy on June 18, 2009 - Thursday - 6:21 AM
Triple, the great thing about Thermo Dynamics is that the Law of the Conservation of Energy is falsifiable, and has never been falsified. Until an example of energy being created or an example of energy being destroyed is presented, then it is reasonable to conclude that energy can not be created nor destroyed.

So to answer your question "How do I know?" I know because of evidence Triple. I don't claim absolute magic knowledge like you do with your invisible god friend though. If what I know about the conservation of energy were overturned by new evidence tomorrow I would be extremely excited, because the discovery that energy could be created would unlock limitless possibilities for perpetual energy devices, and I've always been fascinated with perpetual motion. The discovery that energy could be destroyed would open up new ways to look at the disposal of toxic matter, and maybe even provide a way to eventually destroy black holes (a looming natural threat in our galaxy). It would be more than Nobel worthy, if someone discovered that energy COULD be created or destroyed that person would become an instant hero to me. I'm not going to hold my breath though, because everything we do know about energy suggests that it can not be created nor destroyed.




Posted by triple on June 20, 2009 - Saturday - 11:53 AM 
you had mentioned earlier that scientists had been trying to do this for the last 300 years.

have you read all the reports of scientist conducting these experiments of the last 300 years?

From what you wrote earlier you mentioned that you had conducted this "coal experiment" in the form of BBQs you've had.  Have you observed all tests performed on this particular subject?

additionally, no need to insult God please.  just stick with the discussion and that would be appreciated.  thanks.



Posted by Valentine Technocracy on June 21, 2009 - Sunday - 12:21 PM 
----
"have you read all the reports of scientist conducting these experiments of the last 300 years?"
----

No, and why is that relevant? If your insinuation is that someone has falsified the law of energy conservation, please present the falsification. Certainly the scientific community is unaware of it, so you might want to present it to them as well.

----
"From what you wrote earlier you mentioned that you had conducted this "coal experiment" in the form of BBQs you've had.  Have you observed all tests performed on this particular subject?"
----

No, and why does it matter? When I burn coal I don't need an electron microscope and an LHC collider to see what's happening, I can see the smoke, I can feel the heat, I can smell the fumes. There's no logical reason to conclude that the energy is simply vanishing.

Anyway if you think you've got the where-with-all to falsify the law of energy conservation have at it.

----
"additionally, no need to insult God please.  just stick with the discussion and that would be appreciated.  thanks."
----

I didn't insult any god or gods Triple, but maybe you found the word "magic" insulting. Maybe if I said "miracle" it would be better?



V

I would continue to ask...If you haven't read all the test conducted in the last 300 years on energy how many have you read?

You said you said you haven't observed all test conducted on these claims...how do you know that this law of conservation is true?





Valentine
Valentine Heart

 
Triple, how do you know that the earth revolves around the sun? Have you read the papers on every test conducted to confirm this? If you haven't observed all of the tests first hand how do you know that the claim that the earth revolves around the sun is true?

I suppose in short answer it makes perfect sense and you can google the information and pretty much every scientist and every space administration would verify this. My answer to you is similar to this. I've read a few articles on the methodology and findings of studies that set out to overturn the Conservation of Energy principle, but why is that relevant? Like I said everything we know about energy indicates that it can neither be created nor destroyed.

No one has ever provided an example of Energy being created, and no one has ever provided an example of it being destroyed. Now if you feel that you have the wherewithal to knock down the principle of Energy Conservation, be my guest.

 
Posted by Valentine on June 29, 2009 - Monday - 4:09 PM
[Reply to this
triple

 
well there those who would exclude certain contrary information because of their presuppositions...so you haven't experienced all forms of energy, read all the tests on the conservation of energy, or performed all the test on energy particles to see if they in fact are destroyed or created but you would generalize that energy in its simplist form cannot be created or destroyed?
 
Posted by triple on July 7, 2009 - Tuesday - 5:04 AM
[Reply to this
Valentine
Valentine Heart

 
Energy in it's simplest form, no. There are indeed different hypothetical forms of energy such as Dark Energy but even their proponents don't suggest that energy can be destroyed. What evidence exactly is there that energy can be destroyed triple? The simple fact of the matter is that there's no evidence that energy can be created or destroyed and if there were you should be able to present it through a link or something.

 Your standard that unless I have absolute and perfect knowledge of every paper on every study ever done then I can't draw a reasonable conclusion backed by decades of research and an overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is absolutely ludicrous. My last post opened up with a question intended to illustrate the absurdity of such a notion.

 
Posted by Valentine on July 8, 2009 - Wednesday - 1:23 PM
[Reply to this
triple

 
in your last paragraph you wrote something interesting that I think will at least move the discussion along.  That basically you have come to this "conclusion" because of decades of research (which you haven't read for yourself), and an overwhelming consensus in the "scientific" community (assuming you haven't spoken with a fraction of that "whole" community).  Do you know if it will be this way tomorrow?

 
Posted by triple on July 11, 2009 - Saturday - 6:42 AM
[Reply to this
Valentine
Valentine Heart

 
Cute triple. Maybe the conversation would be moving along quite well if you'd actually be honest enough to answer the questions I asked you throughout the course of the discussion, but since you seem to want to play dirty and show a clear double standard I'll play... I won't play dirty, but I'll play.

No, Triple, I said I haven't read every single paper on every single study ever done. I have read plenty on the subject myself, including articles addressing the methods and findings of various case studies. Also, the absence of a controversy among scientist testifies to the consensus among scientist, and the constant failure of every study (including one that was finished up just last week) to overturn the principle of energy conservation also testifies to the strength of the principle. Companies have been funding research into perpetual turbines and what have you for almost a century now, all to no avail, and even before that dead end rat race people were experimenting with "perpetual motion" devices.

I challenge you to present some evidence suggesting that energy can be created or destroyed. Cite a single article, link me to a single webpage, but at least do something besides sitting there trying to undermine the notion of reasonable certainty.

 
Posted by Valentine on July 14, 2009 - Tuesday - 3:49 AM
[Reply to this
triple

 
V
So to answer my question that was asked previously, you don't know if it will be this way tomorrow?  

You are the one making the claim that began the whole discussion.  I still think your argumentation is weak to back this statement up.  Nonetheless, let's tackle another problem with this statement of yours.  Citing the 1st law as "Energy can neither be created nor destroyer".  This is not a scientific statement in the way this is phrased.  It is actually a philosophical assertion.  Science is based on observation (I don't think you would argue that) yet there is no observable evidence that can support the dogmatic "can" and "cannot" that is implicit in this statement.

Would you agree that the statement should read (and I think this would go along with what you have tried to say in your previous posts) "As far as we have observed the amount of actual energy in the universe remains constant.  I think this is the way the 1st law ought to be understood.  



 
Posted by triple on July 18, 2009 - Saturday - 5:07 AM
[Reply to this
Valentine
Valentine Heart

 
Triple, in order for a statement to be accepted as law or theory it must be falsifiable and the law of Energy Conservation is the penultimate example of the falsifiable. If even one experiment showed that energy could be created or destroyed then the law of energy conservation would be debunked. It holds up under the most intense scrutiny, Michio Kaku predicted that the LHC would finally disprove it and do you know what we found? Even when smashing Matter and Anti-Matter together, the energy isn't destroyed, but instead released as Gamma Rays and other forms of radiation (not the outcome Kaku had expected and hoped for).

In any event, that energy can neither be created nor destroyed is a negative statement, but one that's always held up. It's concise and to the point. Maybe it should be worded slightly differently, but Black Holes shouldn't be called Black Holes because they aren't actually holes and the Big Bang shouldn't be called a Bang because that suggests sound, and don't even get me started on the subject of Time.

 
Posted by Valentine on July 20, 2009 - Monday - 3:27 AM
[Reply to this
triple

 
So to answer my question that was asked previously, you don't know if it will be this way tomorrow?  

and do you agree with the wording on the way I had re-written the "law"?

 
Posted by triple on August 7, 2009 - Friday - 4:21 AM
[Reply to this
Valentine
Valentine Heart

 
I agree that the wording of it may not be the best, but in Science for something to be law it must be falsifiable and never falsified. To answer your question again, I'm reasonably certain that the law of energy conservation will never be overturned but I am not absolutely certain. Then I'm not absolutely certain that I'm not just a brain in a vat being fed sensory data via the matrix, I'm reasonably certain that's not the case but there's no way to actually know to the degree of absolute certainty you seem to expect. Like I said, presented with evidence that energy could be created or destroyed I would change my position and so would the scientific community, science is self correcting after all.

 
Posted by Valentine on August 7, 2009 - Friday - 7:52 PM
[Reply to this