Well, you know I am about as radical a Christian as you will find Mosh... so let me say this... I dont really find EITHER of them offensive. Sure I find the second one abit sad, but that is the freedom that we have in this country... Personally I dont really like the tactic that some use to make the case for Christianity such an impersonal thing as the billboard does... but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I am curious though... why you think that a loving God making a way of escape from eternal torment is "offensive"?

I know you and I havent had a decent talk in awhile, but I am very much curious...

When did telling the TRUTH become offensive? It isnt just the Christianity thing either... I mean ANY truth that comes across as "intrusive" into the other person's life....

Say for instance I went up to a friend and made the statement to a woman, "I dont think you should date that person over there... I happen to know abit of his past and you will get hurt." Is that intrusive? yes.

Is it truth? yes.

is it offensive to tell someone that I care about that if they choose to act in a certain way they will regret it later on? Because that is precisely what we Christians believe...  we bring that message (which you dont agree with) to you so that you do not make a huge mistake (which you have the FREEDOM to choose) and wind up regretting it when it is actually to late....

If you are right about God... then I still cared enough about you to share something I believed in...
If I am right about God however... ...  ...  Then what would TRULY be offensive is my silence on bringing to you Christ... because if I am right.... then I said nothing while you perished... and I would be to blame...

Love ya sister! :-)

 

I don't find it offensive.

♥Subscribe to my blog!♥

 

Hello Paul.  See this piece on Schizophrenia.

Pay close attention to the info on ''Delusions of Influence''>/font?
 

''I dont think you should date that person over there... I happen to know abit of his past and you will get hurt.''

There's a big difference between warning me that the girl I like divorced her last three husbands and left them pennyless, and suggesting that those who do not think as you do cannot be of good character.

The ''Truth'' you speak of is a buzzword, a slogan associated with a religion or philosophy and is not related to a truth which represents the veracity of an idea or a claim.

When you warn me about that woman, I'm going to ask you show me the proof.  It's a serious claim when you say that someone is of bad character and a serious charge requires serious proof.  When you tell others that they're no good for not thinking as you do, and you've got the same reason that all religious drones around the world have, namely that your god is the real one, the others are all fake and their followers are pawns of a devil, and so are you unless you obey me, you shouldn't be surprised when people are offended and respond with ''SCREW OFF YOU PSYCHO!'' or something less polite.
 

Robert pretty much said what I was thinking. I didnt see anything offensive about either one. The second one was a bit sad to me though because at one time I also couldn’t believe and I know that feeling. However, that’s the freedom we have to choose which path in life to take. As a believer I just want to say I never feel that I am better because of my choice but I cant help but feel better off. And my heart does tend to want to share it because to me it feels like a gift. And to further note....a gift should never be forced on anyone if its truly a gift from shared from the heart;)

It is everyone’s choice to choose but there always seems to be debate over the ending outcome when neither side can prove it until that day comes, lol.

For example: I knew something about my sisters husband that she didn’t know and refused to believe (he hit on me behind her back and I couldn’t prove it) but I still told her that she might not be able to trust him and guess what....it offended her. It is just human nature to become offended I guess, even if it means we are trying to warn out of care and love for that person. How can I relate this to the existence of a heaven or hell you ask? Well, I will reply with, can you prove that its NOT at all possible what we warn about is true? My sister couldn’t prove what I was trying to say was true but it was worth me warning her over anyway because I cared.

I say choose your path as we have freedom to do and then accept the outcome now and stop grumbling over it. Because like Roberts said, since when did warning someone of something that could possibly happen become so offensive. And why in the world would a sign that states some people are having a hard time believing, offensive? If anything, it should grab us by the heartstrings.

Robert brought up a good question though, why is it that a loving God making a way of escape from a bad outcome is so offensive to some unbelievers?

 
Btw, its good to see ya back a bloggin again, missed ya!

 

 

The reason you deny the offense could be that you're brainwashed and uncritically accepting of an ideology which insists that the more you are reviled and rejected for proselytizing, the more blessed you are...  so you may actually believe you're out there collecting Blessing Points and remain oblivious to your bad behavior.
 

Abu,

By the way I loved Aladin, is your name pronounced like the Abu that was the cute little monkey?

"The reason you deny the offense could be that you're brainwashed and uncritically accepting of an ideology...."

Time out, hold on a sec. Can you not see that by you accusing me of being in a state of denial that you yourself are participating in the very thing you accuse me/Christians of? You cant just go around telling people they are in denial of something when you have no basis for your accusations. And you do not know me.

I do not deny that others may become offended by certain things in life such as, you put it, other ideologies but I don't HAVE to agree with those ideologies just because they are yours and I dont expect anyone to accept mine. 
That is the beauty of individuality and the freedom to choose our own paths.

One of my favorite quotes form the Matrix: "No one will believe what you believe. That is ok because My faith does not demand anyone to believe what I believe."  There is another one in Matrix that I like: "No one can make a choice that they do not first understand."  It may be a secular movie but it has some seriously awesome messages of faith.

By you insulting my choice of direction in life you are only telling everyone that you yourself are against others right to choose. Which means you are playing the very game that you claim to despise.  See my faith does teach me to treat others as would like to be treated. I think it works pretty well. I will respect your choice and you can in turn respect my choice. 

We can both have opinions but I wont insult you for it by saying that you are evil when I have no basis for that accusation against you. Oh, I guess I could make a preconceived opinion about you and say that you are hateful and evil because you are a radical atheist and you prolly killed someone for being a Christian, but I have no way of knowing you personally so it would be ludicous to even say such a mean thing to you.

You went on to say: ".....which insists that the more you are reviled and rejected for proselytizing, the more blessed you are...  so you may actually believe you're out there collecting Blessing Points and remain oblivious to your bad behavior."

Now this part of your comment just shows even further how ignorant you are about my faith that you so happen to have found SO deserving of attack just because you found out that I am a believer. Preconception is a nasty habbit isn't it. So your basically addressing my Christian faith as if I am a radical Muslim, lol.

When are people going to learn that the term Christian does not mean that all Christian faiths and doctrines are the same? Before people start going off on others choices of faith they really should do a thorough study on religions and faiths. Some people dont even realize that religion and faith are two polar opposites.

Radical Muslims base their lives on fear and punishment because they do not follow a god that sacrificed for them out of love but they follow Allah and Mohammad which demands them to sacrifice to their god, and that is a huge difference from Jesus Christ, which is the God I follow who sacrificed Himself for me.


 

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply.

I selected the screen name, Abu, to honor the ideas which James L. Hunt expressed in his wonderful poem Abou Ben Adhem.

***''Can you not see that by you accusing me of being in a state of denial that you yourself are participating in the very thing you accuse me/Christians of?''***

Yes, I was fully aware that my words could be seen as hypocrisy but it has always been my tactic to return the ploys of an another.  Though I meant no offense, I risked it to elucidate my complaint.

***''You cant just go around telling people they are in denial of something when you have no basis for your accusations. And you do not know me'' ... ''I do not deny that others may become offended''***

You can tell whomever you wish, just what you think whenever an opportunity occurs.  I thought I was reasonably polite.  After all, you did write ''I didnt see anything offensive about either one'' regarding the billboards which some others claimed to be offended by, so I think you come as close as you dare to denial without actually telling the injured parties that they are wrong and they were not offended at all. 

So, yes, I did state as a forgone conclusion that you were denying the offense.  I then offered a possible reason, namely that you could be brainwashed and then, I suggested a possible scenario... but if the shoe doesn't fit... by all means, please don't wear it.

***''I don't HAVE to agree with those ideologies just because they are yours and I dont expect anyone to accept mine''***

I love how you put this and it tells me that you personally may not be prone to proselytizing since you ''dont expect anyone to accept'' your ideology.  It just wouldn't make sense, right?  Who in the world would expect to have their ideas rejected and tell others those ideas anyway?...  LOL, especially those who have already let you know that they do reject those ideas!

***''No one can make a choice that they do not first understand''***

I remember belief and faith from The Matrix.  I also remember disagreeing with the quote above on a technicality, namely, that people can and do make choices without understanding but no one can come to a reasonable conclusion regarding choices without some understandings.  In other words, one can make a choice based on detailed, precise and verified information, based on how lucky they feel today, or based on anything in between.  Naturally, basing choices on as much accurate info as possible is more likely to produce a better choice than decisions which are based on less accurate or no info.

***''By you insulting my choice of direction in life you are only telling everyone that you yourself are against others right to choose. Which means you are playing the very game that you claim to despise''*** 

Do you or don't you see a difference between me, pointing out your denial and suggesting a possible reason, and, me, telling you that you deserve to be tortured for ever for not choosing my God?

I don't know you, but I know your words here.  I don't know what you think your ''direction'' in life is though I do suspect, if as you say, you find nothing that could offend someone in the ''Make up your Mind, choose My God or My Devil'' billboard, that you think, of all the possible ''directions'' a soul may travel, your ''direction'' is the correct choice and the rest of the ways are at best, wrong and at worst, Evil.  If you think there's nothing to offend someone on that billboard, why don't you think there's nothing to offend you in my message to you.  What exactly do you take as an insult in my one-sentence message?  I did say ''could be'' and ''you may actually'' and not ''you are'' and I never told you that you should be punished for anything,  I offer a possibility for you and others to explore and not the typical judgmental condemnation with which those who think their ideas are the only good ones might greet you.

***''See my faith does teach me to treat others as would like to be treated. I think it works pretty well. I will respect your choice and you can in turn respect my choice''***

I like this idea but some people treat others badly because they want to be treated badly.  There's a difference between normal pathology, and abnormal pathology and that difference is not always clear when, for instance, the lesser degree of my symptoms includes notions that I must be on the right track because people get pissed off when I tell them that their god is false and they deserve endless pain, and a greater degree which includes the delusion that this ''Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you'' idea must always apply and the accompanying compulsion to continue to piss people off becomes a mania.  From what you wrote, you don't seem to suffer from such a mania but I assure you that others do. They are the most vocal, they unfortunately get too much attention and they need to be denounced in the way one would hope, for example, a moderate Muslim would denounce the fanatic Muslim extremist.

***''I wont insult you for it by saying that you are evil when I have no basis for that accusation against you''***

And yet you're OK with a billboard that suggests, unless people choose the God advertised in it, they by default choose what is evil and deserve to be hurt forever.  That's pretty Fundamentalist to me.  That's like saying ''either you're for us or you're against us''... ''either you're with my God or you're with my enemy.

***''When are people going to learn that the term Christian does not mean that all Christian faiths and doctrines are the same?''***

I can't speak for all people but a great many of us know that people who define themselves as one kind or another of a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist, Republican, Liberal, Anarchist, Democrat, Communist, etc. do so for various reasons and degrees of reason, and one can't remain reasonable if one assumes that all of any group of folks are ''all alike''.  We may not always remember this but we do know it.

***''Before people start going off on others choices of faith they really should do a thorough study on religions and faiths. Some people dont even realize that religion and faith are two polar opposites'' ... ''Jesus Christ, which is the God I follow''***

My description of one who may be ''brainwashed and uncritically accepting of an ideology which insists that the more you are reviled and rejected for proselytizing, the more blessed you are'' is an example of abnormal pathology. It's not an attack on you in particular or on one kind of Christian or another.  It's just one possible reason for offensive proselytizing and the whole of my previous message to you was nothing more and nothing less than a challenge (by example) for you to revisit that billboard to see if you could find the offense.
 

Abu,

 

“If you think there's nothing to offend someone on that billboard, why don't you think there's nothing to offend you in my message to you.”
 

Your message to me was not a billboard to read or to ignore, to accept or to laugh off. You were directly addressing me with preconceived notions that were quite rude. I feel there is a significant difference here.

 

The Ten Commandments were removed from schools, prayer was and there have been many times when Christians have been targeted and ridiculed for their faith, myself included. In many communist countries believers are tortured and killed for their choice of faith in Jesus Christ. So to complain about a message on a billboard is to whine in my opinion.

 

But at the same time, I also understand how one might feel offense in this case. Especially if the complaint is about the one billboard being removed while the other remains, now that I understand to be offensive.

  

If you are saying that you feel the tacky message of heaven and hell should go but the other should remain then in this case you would reveal the desire to be partial.  If we should have freedom to choose our paths wouldn’t it be unfair to allow one and not the other? I thought both billboards should have been left up personally. If one goes then it doesn’t matter which one goes because the outcome is the same and that is that we will have lost freedom of expression and speech. 

 

 I don’t come here to push my faith on Moshellie, I just come here for good old spicy conversation with my buddy Shell.  We don’t always agree but we both agree that to disagree is just fine. 

 

“From what you wrote, you don't seem to suffer from such a mania but I assure you that others do. They are the most vocal, they unfortunately get too much attention and they need to be denounced in the way one would hope…”

 

I do understand your frustrations in this area I actually know what your talking about and it is those people who  may know the Christ by name but they may not know Him personally or His teaching thoroughly. As a believer I know that Christ does actually tell us that If we have not love then what we speak is of no account. But I always thought that by being that change you hope to see in others, that  you feel to be at fault, is more powerful than any sneak attack on those you feel to be in need of “denouncing” as you put it. Only my opinion. 

 

“And yet you're OK with a billboard that suggests, unless people choose the God advertised in it, they by default choose what is evil and deserve to be hurt forever.  That's pretty Fundamentalist to me.”

 

My first thought here is, what are you whining about? What are you afraid of? It shouldn’t even be an issue for you, if you do not believe this tacky message of heaven and hell to be a possibility then why doesn’t it just roll off your back without a second thought?

 

I don’t believe in aliens, so a billboard, that says aliens are going to come and take me away and probe me in my nether regions if I don’t accept their invitation, are not going to phase me one bit. I will laugh and have a great time with it but it wouldn’t offend me, seriously I don’t know what is so offensive about either one of those billboards.

 

Like I said earlier, if you have made a choice, whatever that choice be, accept that choices planned outcome and stop whining about it or others decided choices. If your faith is not Christian then this billboard should not affect you personally, unless He is in fact calling you after all;)



 

~ The lady doth protest too much, methinks ~

***''Your message to me was not a billboard to read or to ignore, to accept or to laugh off. You were directly addressing me with preconceived notions that were quite rude''***

Apparently I struck a nerve with my of abnormal pathology example.  I told you ''If the shoe doesn't fit... don't wear it'' but it seems you're wearing it.  Does it fit or not?  The fact that you have taken my words to heart and find me quite rude is, I think, your denial and double standards struggling with reality for survival.

A message displayed prominently in public space IS a message to you.  Ignoring, accepting or laughing it off are your choices since you can't make a challenge or argue with a billboard, but given the option of argument, argument here is the choice you make.

***''Christians have been targeted and ridiculed for their faith, myself included''***

Can you specify which Christians and what ridicule you refer to? 

You know... I read your last comment thoroughly and I answered each question you posed.  You obviously have not done the same for me.  Characterizing my reply three times as whining tells me that you were not able to give me that same attention.  If you reread my reply you will see that my complaint to you is not the message on the billboard but your denial that it could offend someone.

Quid Pro Quo!

Do you or don't you see a difference between me, pointing out your denial and suggesting a possible reason, and, me, telling you that you deserve to be tortured for ever for not choosing my God?

 

Abu,

”A message displayed prominently in public space IS a message to you.  Ignoring, accepting or laughing it off are your choices since you can't make a challenge or argue with a billboard, but given the option of argument, argument here is the choice you make. “

 

LOL, well quite honestly I thought I would humor your “abnormal pathological” tendencies for kicks and giggles, I am guilty of being curious of someone who actually admits that they enjoy being argumentative for arguments sake.

 

 And yes, I can choose to ignore or laugh you off just like a billboard but in this case I chose to be amused and participate in this amusing conversation, just as I prolly would be amused and verbal about a billboard that told me aliens were going to take me away, lol.

 

Just because I have a comment about the billboard doesn’t mean I am offended by it. Just because I made a comment about your statement doesn’t mean that I am offended by your statements.

 

But you are actually saying that you are offended by something that you don’t even believe exists? Or that I should sympathize with those who become offended about something they don’t even believe in? 

”Apparently I struck a nerve with my of abnormal pathology example.  I told you ''If the shoe doesn't fit... don't wear it'' but it seems you're wearing it.  Does it fit or not?  The fact that you have taken my words to heart and find me quite rude is, I think, your denial and double standards struggling with reality for survival.”

 

I see you have chosen to take the straw man approach in order to avoid worthier issues and more valid points that I have made? Hum….the Abu doth hide from validity much, methinks;)

 

Your admitting that you are offended by a billboard just because its message is outrageous insanity to you?  I can see one being amused maybe but offended? That is quite laughable honestly. So, no, I still do not understand how anyone who does not believe in heaven or hell could become offended. I don’t believe in aliens so naturally I’m not offended by those who do believe in aliens. I think this shows there is something deeper going on with those who hold a grudge against people who have faith in Jesus Christ.   

 

I am sorry if it offends you but I just do not get it.  Because why does it even matter to someone who doesn’t believe it to be possible or true? Being offended by a billboard about something in which you do not even remotely believe in is pretty much showing acknowledgment of the existence of God to begin with, so it is then just complaining. You almost seem to acknowledge its possibility of truth but then comes the whine.

 

Some people expect to have it there way or no way at all when it comes to accepting Christ yet they complain that the message of heaven or hell is so His way or no way, thus offensive? HA, laughable, yet again. 

 

According to the Christ-ian faith, God offers a way out of a bad outcome by His personal loving sacrifice that He chose to make for everyone so they didn’t have to suffer hell. Yet the topic isn’t the unbelievable sacrifice of His love for that salvation, it is “whining” about how it wasn’t perfect according to that individuals idea of perfect.

Expecting it to be your way and if it isn’t then screaming that it’s the wrong way. Did we create the whole universe and everything in it? Could we, the creation, say we know better than the creator? How do we know if our choice to just send everyone to heaven wouldn’t be the wrong choice-- after seeing the outcome, which we cant see just yet but God can.

There has always been a consequence for actions, there has always been an enforcement of laws for our well being and benefit. We have judges and we don’t think a judge, who allows child abusers or murderers to go free, to be considered a good judge, do we? God is the judge of heaven and hell and He is said to be a just God. Who would better know what is best for our well being than the one who knows everything.

  

But hey, if you don’t believe in this stuff then what does it matter, right.

Can you specify which Christians and what ridicule you refer to? 

 

The worst example: Any of the communist countries, just google it sometime. Or go to Voice of the Martyrs webisite and grab a box of tissues.



You know... I read your last comment thoroughly and I answered each question you posed.  You obviously have not done the same for me.  Characterizing my reply three times as whining tells me that you were not able to give me that same attention.  If you reread my reply you will see that my complaint to you is not the message on the billboard but your denial that it could offend someone.

I thought I made my point quite clear. I said, it cannot offend someone that doesn’t first believe in it. And if you believe in it, it will not offend. That is the difference that actually experiencing and accepting Christ brings to a person. And I cannot debate the manifest presence of God with you because a persons personal experience is never at the mercy of someone’s argument. It is something that should always remain respected as it is an individual and personal situation.

 

***''Just because I have a comment about the billboard... Just because I made a comment about your statement doesn’t mean that I am offended''***

You really need to focus if you want to work through this denial.  Just relax and let yourself focus.  There are folks who took offense to the ''Follow my God or you are Evil'' billboard. 

You don't know what a straw man argument is, do you?  It sounded smart so you copied and pasted that quip to your comment, didn't you?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
That you disagree with what I wrote... tells me that sooner or later, you'll be arrested for molesting a young girl, dealing drugs or something just as bad.  Either way, you're going to prison.  No doubt about it!  Get help now... or it'll be too late for you.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

You wrote: ''But you are actually saying that you are offended by something that you don’t even believe exists? Or that I should sympathize with those who become offended about something they don’t even believe in?''  and  ''why does it even matter to someone who doesn’t believe it to be possible or true?''  and finally,  ''I made my point quite clear. I said, it cannot offend someone that doesn’t first believe in it''  So, here,

You're saying that me, pointing out your denial, suggesting that you could be brainwashed, that you come as close as you dare to denial without actually telling the injured parties that they are wrong and they were not offended, (which you finally got around to doing in no uncertain terms) and telling you that you have a despicable character and will eventually go to prison for it, simply cannot be offensive as long as you don't believe it.

Your denial runs deeper and wider than I thought.  Delusion is not simply making a mistake about what to believe; Delusion is the inability to tell the real from the imagined.  One of your delusions is, you think you can say any rotten thing you like and if someone is offended... well... it must be true since (according to your delusion) ''if one doesn't believe in it, one is not offended''.  

You should revisit my abnormal pathology example. Try to see how it applies to you.  The more you write, the less sense you make to me and the more you remind me of the nuts who think the more they piss someone off, the more right they are.  Read all the nonsense you've been writing.    After proclaiming that nothing you say can offend people unless they believe it, I can't imagine what's left for me to say.  You said it all.

PS:  I know you do not read what I write.  It's obvious.  I realize you just skim over my words to find something you can object to.  I can't tell if you have an attention deficit disorder or just poor reading ability.  Nowhere in any of my comments did I write about me being offended by the billboards.  Each time you suggested this I reminded you that my complaint to you is not about the billboards but about your denial that they could be offensive.  A little bible advice here; It's better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
 

 

Sad why? You said you aren't 'better' than anyone because you believe... but are sad that people don't? Or is it you're sad they would like to network with other like minded people?

I'm not necessarily offended by either... more saddened that my son is being brought up in a world where he will be told that he is inadequate, 'sinful', and in need of salvation -- even before he can grasp the concepts.

 

I said I wasn't better than but I do feel better off. So why is it wrong for me to feel sad about something that according to what I understand to be true from my experience (much like my analogy of my sister) IS in fact not a positive outcome for some? Like I said I couldn’t prove to my sister why her outcome would be a cheating husband taking advantage of her but it was true nonetheless and was it then wrong of me to feel sad for her? It is the same thing.

It is strange but I actually just posted a new blog today about 'sin, inadequacy and repentance. Or as you put it  offenses, regrets and apologies.  Same difference. So, are you saying that you don't feel regrets and that you dont agree with apologizing to those you care about?

 

***''I said, it cannot offend someone that doesn’t first believe in it.   And if you believe in it, it will not offend''***

Are YOU serious?  Now you deny offense exists altogether!  What's left that one can say to offend someone... Nothing?  Anything?
 

You're making quite the assumption here: Why are atheists so afraid to attack Islam?
 

I have more issue with the nature of belief that leans on the perspective that humanity as a whole is flawed -- even a newborn baby. We are inadequate at birth, below par before we can even speak,... and in need of supernatural intervention to even meet the bar. That is what I have issue with, along with the whole concept of suffering as it applies to a deity.
It's not Christianity I take issue with, it's a mentality of inadequacy.

 

In a sense, she was bringing light to the same issue I had in my own blog last week.  The bigger issue was over that second innocuous ad, the "Don't believe in God?" ad.  How this all started was in that same ad having been posted on a public transit bus in Ohio, and then promptly being removed after "many citizens" allegedly complained that it was "offensive" and allegedly refused to ride the bus.  The head of the transit authority stated that he also found it offensive.  So my question was:  Exactly WHAT about that ad could be seen as offensive to anyone?  I really would like to know, and so far I've not succeeded in finding anyone who either found it offensive or could even relate for me what about the ad might be offensive to anyone else.  Honestly, I'm perplexed.

So after we had spent some time in bewilderment over this, we're out driving around and the other sign shows up in town.  We're both looking at it saying, "If that other atheist sign in Ohio was so damned offensive, how is THIS not raising a ruckus?"  Not that I'm personally "offended" by the sign as such, let alone even considering raising it as a complaint to anyone, but the point is that this "heaven or hell" sign is way more "in your face" than the other, which I guess my point is that of the double standard and that I still am totally confused over why the atheist sign was ever complained about in the first place.

Speaking for myself, I don't actually have any issues with Christianity as such, though I do often find myself at odds with specific manifestations of fundamentalist practice and belief -- and to be even more clear, that's with the policies and behaviors that result, NOT personally with people themselves.  Yes, I'm going to be annoyed at someone standing at my door making accusations regarding my ethical standards and moral standing without knowing a damn thing about me other than that my metaphysical perspective isn't the same as theirs, and certain public policy issues are important to me............  but I'm pretty sure you'll understand what I'm saying here and that it isn't personal and that it isn't a broad, sweeping anti-Christianity or even more so not anti-CHRISTIAN (i.e., the people) viewpoint.

As for Islam, huh?  I will most certainly condemn Islam as a religion, most particularly the hateful variants of it.  However, I won't make an assumption about an individual MUSLIM or any group of them without knowing exactly what their perspective is.  Any given Muslim could very well be the most peaceful, tolerant, anti-violent individual you've ever met, and one won't know that without finding out first.  But the religion itself DOES tend to breed more bad behavior than it should, and for that, it does need to be roundly condemned.  I just don't think it makes sense, though, to go declaring war on a whole religion and all 1.2 billion adherents.  The religion itself has a tendency to produce dangerous people, but what right have I to treat the non-dangerous ones as war criminals?  That is my position.  Don't think I won't very heartily condemn the fundamentalism in Islam as well.


 

Chris, I didnt find that second add to be offensive either so I have no idea what all that was about, lol. I didnt find it a problem at all and I would hope that both signs could happily coexist, lol.
 
The first thing that came to mind was maybe the people who had it removed have some serious problems with their proclamation of "the love of Christ" because quite honestly for me it was simply a reminder of my life as an agnostic and my husband was an atheist so it prompted that desire to share the gift I had found a few years ago myself. 

It is not meant to be an insult and I would hope no one would take it that way, but sadly some have. I understand that others may not believe it is reality to know the Lord personally and to fellowship with Him and know that He is, but to me it is truth beyond truth and I have been sold, so naturally one who has found a gift longs to share that gift.

I will feel a desire to share that wow'ing experience with everyone! If the person verbalizes that they do not wish to accept the gift that I found to be so awesome then it no longer remains a gift and one should then back off but a billboard sign doesnt lead me to force a gift on anyone so how could it offend anyone?
 

Actually... as I learned back in the day when I WAS an atheist... you are hinting at the very straw that broke the camels back for me.... I went from trying to prove Christianity false (because my mother turned into one of those "fundamentalists") to actually questioning IF this COULD BE true.... then from there I went to "wanting to believe yet had to make sure".... once I was there I noticed something...

No matter what other religion is out there... they can blow themselves up, they can condone violent atrocities..., they can strip away all your freedoms... yet, people have the real beef with Christianity?

It didnt make sense... until one day I it dawned on me that... "if EVERYTHING is against Christianity.... there MUST be something to it"...

Islam produces suicide and homocide bombers... recruiting teenagers now... yet noone really speaks out about that.
The fanatical left wing secular humanists (yes this is ALSO a religion) have a double standard about tolerance... yet they hate Christianity more than Islam which teaches a woman cant wear clothing that reveals anything more than her face.

Why do they hate Christianity? Because Jesus made the statement "If you love Me, keep My commandments."? Because He taught that if you WANT freedom, it is free, but you have to make the choice and alter your lifestyle???

Islam says convert or die!
Christianity says "there is a better way." OH NOES!!!!

For me... it said that the entire world (which has not just different, but violently opposing viewpoints) can live together leaving each other alone for the most part... yet they are all stacked against Jesus? Wow, what did He do to piss you ALL off? Oh... He told the truth.... thats right.

 

 

Wherever secular law prevails, the power of religious authority to persecute, torture and wage war is suppressed.  Christians have had their foot on the throats of their competition for well over a thousand years.  Your ignorance of recent history is obvious.
___________________________________________________________________________

Secular law? Lest you forget, this country and the secular law you seem to proport, was founded upon the Judeo Christian Bible. I find that it is your ignorance of recent history that is found wanting.

___________________________________________________________________________
Genocide and slavery were Christian ethics and indigenous populations around the world were subjugated and murdered while good Christian Soldiers looted and burned.
___________________________________________________________________________

Tell me something in the last 100 years that the church has done to further genocide. Slaevery was not a Christian ethic. You are terribly misinformed. It was a Christian by the name of William Wilburforce that was largely responsible for defeating slavery in England. And it was Chritians in the North that thought slavery a horrible thing and wanted to end it, which led to the Civil War in this country.

______________________________________________
Without Secular Law you would be up to your old tricks.
______________________________________________

proof? again, you are making a wide generalized CLAIM based on no facts but the "word of mouth" you are getting from those that have no idea what the Bible says.

_________________________________________________________________________
Seems you identify with Christianity when it suits you. The idea of over two billion Christians on our planet is something you like, yet, you suggest, among Christians, there are imposters, namely, those whom you disagree with on the meaning of Christian ethics.  You should know that those you disagree with also shelter behind the ''over two billion Christians'' myth and then, other Christians disagree with you and those with whom you disagree, reducing the number of Christians to a fraction of their inflated claim.
__________________________________________________________________________

I identify with Christianity at ALL times. I personally do not, have not, and said nothing about a "2 billion Christian" population... where did you come up with that? Stop putting words into my posts, for as long as you add your own thoughts to MY postings, you will stay as ill informed as you are now.

_________________________________________________________________________
Muslims do condemn terrorists!  You haven't been listening.  When you write 'Islam does this... Islam does that',  it is just as valid as saying 'Christianity does this and that' when referring to the KKK, doctor snipers and other such criminals.  You have the double standards you complain about.  Will you take your own advice and take them elsewhere?  Perhaps a blog where double standards are only for others?
_________________________________________________________________________

the quran says that you should kill jews and Christians wherevr you find them... the Bible says "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life to SAVE another." As I mentioned in a previous post, the KKK is NOT a Christian group. so I can not defend them as if they were. they are evil, they are hateful, and God will judge them.

If you are so deceived that you cannot post something more constructive than this, I would simply not respond to my posts in the future. Mosh and I have a very good friendship, and since this is HER blog, she is the only one that has the ability to prohibit and limit my posting here.

 

 

Once again, in America Christians are the majority and they are the major opposition to atheists/agnostics/non-religious people in our country. Why would we be so adamantly concerned about religions that aren't censoring, bullying, or trying to oppress our freedoms directly? Yes, Zoroastrian and Scientology are religions, but they aren't hindering my freedom or happiness, so why would I direct my energy into speaking out against them?
 

so let me get this straight...  (you only target things that directly affect YOU?) I find this to be extremely selfish and insulated. Islam routinely STONES women who are SUSPECTED of cheating on their husband (without have a SHRED of proof)... her defense? She has to lick a RED Hot spoon (recently heated in a fire) three times without burning her tongue.... What do we Christians do?.... we TALK to you??? we pray for you? oh noes!!!!

Someone call the FBI...this Christian is PRAYING over his meal!!!!!!!!!

I do not mean to sound mean here.... and Mosh will tell you that I am not one to judge or condemn.... but at the risk of sounding harsh.... do you have ANY idea how incredibly arrogant and self centered your comment was?

It was YOUR defense that protested the entry of the US in World War II. You sound like Woodrow Wilson... and he was WRONG!

The absolutely beautiful thing about us "Christians" is that even though things do NOT affect us personally, we feel empathy for who it DOES affect. Because we esteem others MORE THEN ourselves...

Philippians 2:4
do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

Bottom line... we care enough about YOU to say something we think is detrimental to your (longterm) health...


 

What do we Christians do?.... we TALK to you??? we pray for you? oh noes!!!!


 

are you seriously trying to bring morons like the KKK and the westboro "baptist" church in this debate?

these groups are NOT Christian. the KKK is founded upon Hitler's beliefs (which are NOT in the Bible, and the WBC founded by Fred Phelps is about a Christian as I am buddhist. The Bible says "if you say you love God but yet hate your brother, you are a LIAR and there is no truth in you" (1 John 4:20)

Just because someone 'claims' to be a certain thing doesnt make it so. Yet, you will see true Christians denounce these groups... where are the muslims denouncing the terrorists? a couple days ago Libya CELEBRATED the release of a plane bomber!... an entire NATION rejoiced for someone who killed 180 men women and children...

take your double standard nonsense elsewhere please

 

Who is to decide what a "real" Christian is?

Even Fred Phelps whole heartedly believes Christ is the ONLY path. He expresses his belief in a very drastic way, but he still believes.

I have a hard time with the notion of people dictating who is "real" and who isn't in the realm of theistic beliefs. For each believer, you'll find a different opinion of what constitutes a "real" believer... which to me reeks of utter subjectivity.

 

I know you may not agree with it Mosh, but not all 'judging' is bad... And I for one will stand upon the truth as outlined in Scripture to confront and denounce Fred Phelps who believes his own distorted twisted perspective of what the Bible says. He is both blind and deceived and is NOT following Christ.

I linked above a verse that says "if you say you love God but hate your brother, you are a liar and there is no truth in you"... allow me also to say this,

"Say to them, ' As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?' (Ezekiel 33:11)

God takes NO PLEASURE in anyone who dies apart from Him.... this flies in the face of what Fred Phelps and his band of loons say. They say things like "God loves IED's"... this is wicked! It is evil and twisted to think that the God who "loves to bestow good things upon us" would take delight in something thats sole purpose is to kill...

And I will stand up and correct ANYONE who would vocalize the same view.... call me judgmental all you want... but I know what I am commissioned to judge according to the Bible.


as for the rest of your post... I know this may also be hard to believe... but there really is a right and a wrong way to interpret the Bible. But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, (2 Peter 1:20)

Truth is NOT subjective...  our perspectives are... but truth is not.

 

Teresa,

You are correct in what you say. Lately there has been a MASSIVE division within the church over the theology of the Bible. Where I personally fall on this, is that I DO believe in a literal (when possible) interpretation of the Bible. I DO believe in a literal hell (though it doesnt exist yet).

What is a Christian? A Christian is someone who models Jesus in their lives, surrendering their lives to Him, for He gave His life for us. a Christian is someone who reflects God in their lives, and as John the Baptist said, I must decrease, that He may increase." A Christian is someone who understands that the Bible says "anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God." (James 1:20) The use of scare tactics does NOTHING to promote the Love of God, because the Bible is VERY clear, giving way to "fear" is to abandon "faith".

As much as I do not want to get into the topic of church denominations, I feel I must, in order to adequately answer your question.

I find it sad, and yet strangely reaffirming, that there are certain denominations who cave to popular demand and there are those who will stand firm in what the Bible says. The methodist and episcopal denominations for the large part have compromised the truth of the Bible in order to make them fit better with society. The open ordination of openly gay and homosexual ministers is something I cannot stomach. This is not to say I have ANYTHING against these people... This is only to say, that how could someone who is living in what the Bible calls a "rebellious, and immoral" lifestyle could possibly stand and minister to others about the goodness, holiness, and righteousness of God. Such a thing, while happening within some denominations in the church, will never happen in denominations such as the Baptist, or Penticostal, or Charismatic branches. This is to say that very soon you will see even MORE infighting going on within the church as I believe God will begin to purge His church from those who would claim to represent Him but do not.

To know what a Christian is... simply read about Jesus. Jesus said "greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life to save another." Jesus also said, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31), Jesus said, Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)

Matthew Mark Luke and John....

 

Robert,

There is a huge war here about perspectives within the "Christian" community. You see, there are many Christians
who do not believe in a literal eternal hell. The one's who do believe in it will tell these "other Christians" that they
are not saved and are following Satan, or don't know God, or will end up in hell to see it for themselves.... So,
could you please explain just what being a Christian is these days????????????? I see more fighting between the
believers than I do between the believers and the non believers!

 

I'm sorry, can you please enlighten me on my "double standard"?
 

your double standard is that you pick twisted groups who believe in hate...yet turn a blind eye to the liberal left who does the same thing... yet you dont think that THEY represent the entirety of the liberal movement do you?

you are bringing in bits and pieces of facts to make your point without them being taken into context...

Should I show pictures of atheists assaulting people to say that all atheists are violent? of course not!

 

I don't know what atheists you have encountered, but you sure do have a lot of misinformed preconceived notions. Do you think all atheists have the same political views or what? First you aligned me to environmentalists, then you aligned me to someone without compassion, and now I'm a liberal left nut. Wow!
 

 

Quote me where I say I don't have sympathy for people
______________________________________________

if you look upon the suffering of someone else...yet do nothing to help/stop it... you are in effect saying you own "issues" are no consequence to the sufferings and atrocities being committed around you. (you are saying that your small things are more important than the LIVES and freedoms of those far away.

This is a direct opposite of what Christians believe. as I stated above... "do not merely be concerned for your own interests, but the interests of others too"

__________________________________________________________________________________
Only when I have fought my own battles will it be appropriate for me to fight other people's battles. __________________________________________________________________________________

you will always have battles in life.... you have just in effect sidelined your involvement in helping others...

_________________________________________________________________________________________
Christianity has been the aggressor in EVERY civil war fought in America from slavery, women beating, to homophobia
______________________________________________________________________________

lets examine this shall we? you may want to reread your history (from a NONE ACLU source)
American Revolution? freedom FOR religion, based upon the Bible, fought for FREEDOM! American Civil War? fought because Christians in the North decided that "ALL men are CREATED equal and FREEDOM should be worth fighting for. Women's rights? the church fought FOR women's rights! obviously not the right of abortion, but we did fight and back you up for eual pay, voting, etc...

you talk as if you have a decent notion of what Christianity is... yet you do not!

______________________________________________________________________________
Christianity on the other hand, is self-centered with its humanistic arrogance. You guys created a god that is HUMANistic and is only concerned about EARTH while ignoring the other trillions of celestial bodies.
______________________________________________________________________________

which "celestial bodies" are we talking about?... I love how you think you know what you are talking about.... we MADE UP God in a "human" way?... All Christians have said from day one that God is BEYOND our comprehension. God is HOLY... yet you want us to bring Him down to our level?... that is just retarded... you bring up other celestial bodies...yet even this is such a retarded statement that it boggles my mind how you even think this applies to what we are talking about?

Make up your mind... is the church ONLY concerned about the Earth? because environmentalists keep saying we arent at all concerned about the Earth... see? you are talking from an uninformed state...

______________________________________________________________________________
That's pretty damn arrogant to think that a supreme being is ONLY concerned with the existence of us mere mortal humans.
______________________________________________________________________________

who said that? The Bible says that God holds the stars of the heavens in place by His Word! (Psalm 19:1, Isaiah 48:13, Psalm 102:25, Genesis 1:16) again, you are bringing up points you do not understand...

Remember, the Bible says that God created us in His IMAGE... we have His very nature residing inside us. that is why He chose to die for us... to REDEEM us.

_________________________________________________________________________________
Along with your geocentric belief system, you guys make a mockery of anyone that doesn't follow your belief. Of course, you use cute sayings like "feel sorry for" and "pity", but it all comes down to you thinking you're superior than anyone who worships other deities or no deities at all. Tell me how that isn't arrogant and self-centered
_________________________________________________________________________________

so it is arrogant to say I want you to spend eternity with me in heaven? It is arrogant to say that God loves you and made you for a purpose? It is arrogant to say that Jesus DIED for you so you would not have to spend eternity separated from Him?

I DO feel sorry for you. I DO pity you. not because I am better than you... you are worth just as much as I am... you are worth God's BLOOD.... I feel sorry for you because you do not understand... you do not see clearly.... I pity you because you reject the One who sacrificed everything to save you...

If you want to become offended by what God said, thats fine.... in fact, I would be surprised if you didnt... but tell me.... how am I arrogant and self centered? the very fact I am writing in this blog despite the opposition and resentment others present PROVE I am not,,, for IF I were self-centered.... I would simply keep to myself and NOT SHARE....

Ty.... I love debating.... but you seriously need to get a better grip on your views... because you have no clue as to what you are saying.

 

We are but a pale blue dot, Robert.... sometimes perspective of how small we are in light of all that is out there makes you humble and reduces our superiority complex (and humans certainly have that in groves).

Have you seen this? You should really listen to the words and ponder it... it's poetic, beautiful, and insanely thought provoking.



 

I prefer this one Mosh...

A Call to Wonder - Paul Washer from I'll Be Honest on Vimeo.

 

LOL, oh Robert. That wasn't poetic... that was just a video of planets dubbed with a sermon. How could you NOT like Carl Sagan's video?!?!?! GOSH.
Astronomy doesn't make a [wo]man go mad, it humbles you and makes life SO much more beautiful. I value life more in the possibility that I won't be here again,  that this moment will not occur again and that I have to make the most of it. I cherish my time with my family, friends... and those I get the pleasure of meeting and helping. As much as people like to think non-believers are miserable and think we all will just be worm food -- they fail to realize that many LOVE life because it something rare and awe inspiring. You are fascinated by god and have personal reasons that brought you to that -- but I find natural processes sufficient to explain the natural world around me, and it's no less fascinating. ;-)

 

 

if you look upon the suffering of someone else...yet do nothing to help/stop it... you are in effect saying you own "issues" are no consequence to the sufferings and atrocities being committed around you.

 

Wow! That was quite a stretch. So you’re saying if I’m not fighting for all the injustices in the world, that means I’m condoning them? So how much missionary work have you done in Africa? When’s the last time you fed people in South America? Practice what you preach, no pun intended. 

************************

you may want to reread your history (from a NONE ACLU source)

American Revolution? freedom FOR religion, based upon the Bible, fought for FREEDOM! American Civil War? fought because Christians in the North decided that "ALL men are CREATED equal and FREEDOM should be worth fighting for. Women's rights? the church fought FOR women's rights! obviously not the right of abortion, but we did fight and back you up for eual pay, voting, etc...

 

Maybe we’ve been reading different textbooks, but I find it quite the opposite of what you’re saying. Albeit not all Christians are full of hatred, but there are Christian groups that are the major opposition to every type of civil war fought in the US, the present one being the gay rights movement. I have yet to see ONE non-christian reason to oppress homosexuals.

*****************************

which "celestial bodies" are we talking about?

 

I don’t know, maybe the trillions of celestial bodies that exist outside of our solar system ?

********************************

Make up your mind... is the church ONLY concerned about the Earth? because environmentalists keep saying we arent at all concerned about the Earth... see? you are talking from an uninformed state...

 

Okay, now you’re comparing me to environmentalists? WTF? Why do you think that my thoughts would coincide with environmentalists just because I’m an atheist? The only thing that defines an atheist is the belief that there are no deities.

*******************************

who said that? The Bible says that God holds the stars of the heavens in place by His Word! (Psalm 19:1, Isaiah 48:13, Psalm 102:25, Genesis 1:16) again, you are bringing up points you do not understand...

 

You’re obviously confused. This is exactly what I’m talking about. The bible thinks that the Earth is the center of the universe and that the Sun revolves around us. Whooops! Sounds like human arrogance to me.

******************************************

so it is arrogant to say I want you to spend eternity with me in heaven? It is arrogant to say that God loves you and made you for a purpose? It is arrogant to say that Jesus DIED for you so you would not have to spend eternity separated from Him?

 

You sure do have a tendency to sugar coat your actions. You quote Islam as saying “join or die”, but why do you think this is so different than “join us or burn!”? Are Christians not saying what they believe to be true just like Islam? Or is it that you just know you’re right so anyone else that makes an assertion has to be quiet about their beliefs?

 

 

 

 

____________________________________________________________________________
You’re obviously confused. This is exactly what I’m talking about. The bible thinks that the Earth is the center of the universe and that the Sun revolves around us. Whooops! Sounds like human arrogance to me.
____________________________________________________________________________

Nowehere in the Bible does it say we are the "center" of the universe... matter of fact, show me where it does, and I will concede the entirety of the rest of this debate. Stop atomatically believing everything you HEAR about the Bible, and read it for yourself!


 
____________________________________________________________________________
You sure do have a tendency to sugar coat your actions. You quote Islam as saying “join or die”, but why do you think this is so different than “join us or burn!”? Are Christians not saying what they believe to be true just like Islam? Or is it that you just know you’re right so anyone else that makes an assertion has to be quiet about their beliefs?
____________________________________________________________________________
 

I sugar coat my actions?... wow, most of the time I am told I lack 'tact'....

yes, I quote Islam as saying "convert or die"... because that is precisely what the koran teaches. And if you paid attention to the above discussions you would know I am not a fan of "repent or burn" from ANY Christian... Jesus is who we are told to model... and Jesus never one time brought up fire and brimstone as a motivation for salvation.... preaching hell to see the lost saved is to depend on fear or emotional distress to convince them of the truth.... Jesus simply told them god LOVES them and has a better way for them.

and yes... I DO know I am right. Do I lord that over others though? not at all. One of the most beautiful things about God is that He gave us.... the FREEDOM to reject Him... noone forces you... you are more than welcome to say whatever enters that brain of yours.... just like I am FREE to counter it with the Truth...

 

Ty,

There are not EXACT words that say the Earth is the center of the universe. But just like Christians, I am free to interpret the Bible accordingly. The bible specifically mentions the Sun revolving around the Earth, and that the Earth is stationary. The geocentric theory is still believed by Protestants. If you don’t recall, Galileo was jailed by The Church for even saying that the Earth is not the center of the universe. Maybe I’m just interpreting the bible wrong like the Vatican?
***********************

you said it yourself! There ARE NOT EXACT words... yet for all your bashing, you CLAIM that you can interpret the bible accordingly? NOWHERE does it say the sun revolves around the earth... find that one please.

NOWHERE does it say the earth is stationary... find that one too....

lol...dont even bring up the vatican.... there is more idolatry within the catholic church than there is among the "heathen"
 

See! If you lack tact, yet you’re still in here talking like you are just trying to get people to heaven with you, how is that NOT sugar coating your actions?
**********************

you missed my point... I am the same on here as I am on the street... I dont act differently typing than I do in real life... so which is it... because it CANNOT be both....

 

Tell me exactly, why you think your faith is more worthy and truthful than someone else’s faith in another god? How can you say that people of other faiths aren’t worshipping the right god when their emotional attachment to their deity is congruent to your emotional attachment to the judeo-christian god? Who really can prove they’re right in this battle of faiths?
***********************

because TRUTH has NOTHING to do with "emotional attachment" Other faiths do not worship the same God, Jesus was VERY clear when he said, "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6) As far as proof... I offer up plenty... though you would dismiss it. the proof is in changed lives...





 

Nowehere in the Bible does it say we are the "center" of the universe... matter of fact, show me where it does, and I will concede the entirety of the rest of this debate.

 

There are not EXACT words that say the Earth is the center of the universe. But just like Christians, I am free to interpret the Bible accordingly. The bible specifically mentions the Sun revolving around the Earth, and that the Earth is stationary. The geocentric theory is still believed by Protestants. If you don’t recall, Galileo was jailed by The Church for even saying that the Earth is not the center of the universe. Maybe I’m just interpreting the bible wrong like the Vatican? 

***********************

I sugar coat my actions?... wow, most of the time I am told I lack 'tact'....

 

See! If you lack tact, yet you’re still in here talking like you are just trying to get people to heaven with you, how is that NOT sugar coating your actions?

 

**********************

and yes... I DO know I am right.

 

Tell me exactly, why you think your faith is more worthy and truthful than someone else’s faith in another god? How can you say that people of other faiths aren’t worshipping the right god when their emotional attachment to their deity is congruent to your emotional attachment to the judeo-christian god? Who really can prove they’re right in this battle of faiths? 

 

Robert,

The problem is that most of us CAN NOT choose to believe. Something in our brains will not allow this data to be
processed. Most of us pretended and struggled with this "faith" effort for many, many years. We were not living
OUR individual truths. We seem to put truth before the threat of hell and (for me) have even lost family members
because of this. We are not willfully being rebellious as most Christians need to believe. I am open to the possibility
of a G-d, but in respect to integrity and truth, it could not be the same God that you believe in. The only possibility
from your standpoint is that there truly are chosen ones, and the rest of us were doomed to hell from the beginning.
If there is an omnipotent and omniscient God (the human like version that Christians believe in) than He knew the
day he conceived of me that I would never buy this story and that I was going to hell. There have been plenty of
opportunity for him to show himself to me when I was still trying so hard to believe, and he did not. So, when you
excuse him so easily for "allowing" us to choose hell, just keep in mind that we were TRULY not given a chance.

Luckily, that kind of God does not exist. If it did, we are ALL victims or we got lucky with our brain wiring. ; )
Also, makes you wonder if having children is very loving--as a Christian, those souls are with God already, when
we bring them here, they have quite low odds of being saved and escaping eternal hell--how could a believer
endanger a soul just to fulfill the desire to be a parent? Is that love or selfishness?

Thanks, Teresa
 

But that is the thing... you CAN choose what to believe. It is a travesty that so many churches used the statement "just believe" when faced with questions they personally didnt know the answer to. The "Just accept it" approach did MUCH MORE harm than it ever did good (if any). Ultimately this was because they themselves didnt want to possibly jeperdize their own faith because they secretly didnt know if it would hold up or not... but here is the good news! There is NO REASON to be afraid to look for "logical, conclusive, and meaningful evidence" for the questions that so many wonder about.

However... there is not a "individual truth"... there is truth... and there is non truth. We are not talking about preferences here... we are talking about line in the sand foundational truths that have been established.

Why do you think that it could not be the same God as I believe in? You stated that adding "in respect to integrity and truth"... but in the sentence above that you completely shot down any notion of lasting truth. Here is the thing... God doesnt exist BECAUSE we believe in Him. He exists whether or not we believe in Him.

Also, you are confusing foreknowledge with predistination. They are not the samething. Does God KNOW who will and wont be saved? Yes, because He is who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. He is timeless. Outside of the boundaries of a linear timeline that we are confined to. But that doesnt mean He CHOSE who would believe and who wouldnt.

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

This is mirrored three times in Ezekiel alone.

Matthew 18:14
"So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

As to your point about why doesnt He just show Himself in a manifest way....

I would argue that He TRIED that approach with Israel. As recorded in the Old Testament, He travelled with them, spoke in audible ways, did AMAZING things to deliver them time and time and time again.... yet they STILL rebelled time and time and time again...

When Jesus came, died on the cross, rose on the third day, God decided to do something new. Instead of living AROUND us... Through the death and atonement Jesus provided, He would dwell INSIDE us... Let me share this short poem... not because I think it will convince you... but maybe so you will see the point I am trying to make...

Once there was a man who DARED God to speak.
"Burn the Bush like You did for Moses, God. And I will follow.
Collapse the Wall like You did for Joshua, God. And I will fight.
Still the waves like You did on Gallilee, God. And I will listen."
And so the man sat by a bush, near a wall, close to the sea and waited for God to speak.
And God heard the man, so God answered.
He sent Fire, not for a bush, but for a church.
He brought down a wall, not of brick, but of sin.
He stilled a storm, not of the sea, but of a soul.
And God aited for the man to respond.
And He waited.
And He waited.
And waited.
But because the man was looking at bushes, not hearts;
bricks and not lives, seas and not souls, he decided that God had done nothing.
Finally he looked to the heavens and said, "God have You lost Your power!?"
And God looked at him and said, "Have you lost your hearing?"


The question is not "Is God acting"?... The question is "are we paying attention?"

 

>>you CAN choose what to believe.<<

Can you really? Can you, personally, just choose to believe that Allah is god, Muhammad is his prophet, and that infidels are hell bound and deserving of suffering? Turn the coin and consider it, it's not as easy as you're making out.

 

have you not seen people in this life who, no matter what they saw, still REFUSED to believe something? My father is a prime example of this... something could happen clear as day... and if it conflicts with his worldview... he will literally refuse to believe it. What is that, if not a choice?

Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

what is deception but the choice to believe something that is false?

 

I have just read many of your posts here, and I am not quite sure where you are coming from....

Judging from your page you believe in God, yet even I cannot make sense out of your half sentences and 1-2 word rants...

Lets have a reasonably and intelligent dialogue

 

I see that all the time... most recently in folk who will blatantly refuse to consider the mountains of evidence for evolution. Personally, I am more than willing to look at evidence for a given claim.