IF YOU ARE AN ATHEIST PARENT IN FLORIDA PLEASE JOIN THIS GROUP.

I would really like to see this take off as a resource for us. I didn't start the group but I am a member and right now there are only 8 of us. Hope to see you there!

Clinton and Obama will debate faith but not science

Dear Concerned Citizen,

I am sorry to send two emails in such short succession, but I thought you should know that after declining our invitation to debate science in Pennsylvania, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton yesterday agreed to attend "The Compassion Forum," a forum of "wide-ranging and probing discussions of policies related to moral issues." CNN will serve as the exclusive broadcaster of the "presidential-candidate forum on faith, values and other current issues" at Messiah College near Harrisburg, Pa., April 13 at 8 p.m. You can read more here.

Perhaps among the moral issues discussed should be whether they have a moral obligation to more fully engage on science issues, since the future viability of the planet may hang in the balance, for starters. Is there a larger moral imperative? How about the future economic health of the United States and the prosperity of its families? Science & engineering have driven half our economic growth since WWII, yet but 2010 if trends hold 90% of all scientists and engineers will live in Asia. Then there are the moral questions surrounding the health of our families with stem cell research, genomics, health insurance policy, and medical research. There’s biodiversity loss and the health of the oceans and the morality of balancing destruction of species against human needs and expenses, there’s population and development and clean energy research, there’s food supply and GMO crops and educating children to compete in the new global economy and securing competitive jobs. Science issues are moral issues.

I would encourage you to write letters to the editor, emails to the campaigns, and blog postings pointing this out. And if you can, support our ongoing effort to turn this country around.

Shawn Lawrence Otto

ScienceDebate2008.com

The following is an excerpt from the author of Parenting Beyond Belief:

"In the Preface to this book, I said that I had ’set religion aside.’ Actually, that’s a bit like saying someone who rides a bike to work has set traffic aside. I’m still in it, still surrounded by it, and I always will be. Religion, for better or worse, is likely to be a permanent part of the human world. Our job as secular parents is not to work toward a religion-free world, but to help our kids learn to happily and peacefully co-exist with religion.


Co-existence does not mean silent acceptance of all consequences of religious belief. To the contrary: Silence and inaction in the face of dangerous immorality is itself immoral. We have to engage religious people and institutions in just the way we wish to be engaged ourselves, as co-participants in the world. We should reasonably but loudly protest the intolerance, ignorance, and fear that is born of religion while at the same time reasonably and loudly applauding religious people and institutions whenever charity, tolerance, empathy. honesty, and any of our other shared values are in evidence. An important part of this is recognizing that not all expressions of religion and not all religious people are alike. Be sure to help kids recognize that the loudest, most ignorant, and most intolerant religious adherents–whether raving radical Muslim clerics or raving radical Christian televangelists–do not represent all believers, nor even the majority. Though institutional religion itself is an unfortunate thing, the majority of individual believers are decent and throughtful epeople with whom we have more in common with than not. Saying that to yourself once in a while, and to your kids, can move the dialogue further forward that just about anything else.


The vision we should encourage in our children is not a world free of religion but one in which no idea or action is granted immunity from discussion and critique–including, of course, our own."

This is the view that I am leaning toward as I "relax" more into my atheism. Although a lot of atheists are of the opinion that we should eradicate religion from the face of the planet, I really don’t see it happening...especially not in my lifetime.


I believe that my position as an atheist is a strong one because of the evidence for our reality...I don’t see any evidence for a god...science seems to suggest a natural explanation for everything in our world.


A lot of atheists try to pin believers together under the "faith" umbrella: painting all believers just the same and just as bad as the next one because of the fact that they have a little faith...in this instance a belief without evidence.

But why can’t we give our fellow man the benefit of the doubt?

The REASON that the term FAITH even exists in sermons is because people of all beliefs DOUBT. But believers are constantly bombarded with personal experiences of "evidence." There are people who are constantly telling them their god exists, they have a personal relationship with this god (yes, WE know it’s in their minds but THEY don’t :)), many of them can give you first-hand accounts of WHY they believe in a god based on personal experiences.

It’s sort of like the tooth fairy. The tooth fairy doesn’t exist, but if you are a child who receives money under your pillow and your parents tell you the tooth fairy did it then who are you to question? You have evidence that a tooth was exchanged for money and you have the authority of your loving parents telling you what happened. Believers have constant reinforcement for their beliefs in a god.

Believers are our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, neighbors, friends, co-workers. They are our fellow man. We have to buy goods from them and sell goods to them, exchange favors with them. We have to co-exist with them.

Challenge them? Hell yes. But with the attitude that we shouldn’t have to exist with their beliefs? Hell no. It takes all kinds in this world. I’m hoping that eventually the we-will-kill-you-because-of-our-religious-belief types will be among the few and far between...but I’m not betting we’ll ever get rid of religion.

Perhaps this view might be unpopular with you right now, but I’m hoping you’ll change your mind.


TO COMMENT PLEASE FOLLOW THIS LINK:

This was published in Parenting Beyond Belief: On Raising Ethical, Caring Kids Without Religion
and was written by Richard Dawkins as an open letter to his 10-year-old daughter:

Dear Juliet,

Now that you are ten, I want to write to you about something that is important to me.



Have you ever wondered how we know the things that we know? How do we know, for instance, that the stars, which look like tiny pinpricks in the sky, are really huge balls of fire like the sun and are very far away? And how do we know that Earth is a smaller ball whirling round one of those stars, the sun?

The answer to these questions is "evidence." Sometimes evidence means actually seeing ( or hearing, feeling, smelling..... ) that something is true. Astronauts have travelled far enough from earth to see with their own eyes that it is round. Sometimes our eyes need help. The "evening star" looks like a bright twinkle in the sky, but with a telescope, you can see that it is a beautiful ball - the planet we call Venus. Something that you learn by direct seeing ( or hearing or feeling..... ) is called an observation.





Often, evidence isn’t just an observation on its own, but observation always lies at the back of it. If there’s been a murder, often nobody (except the murderer and the victim!) actually observed it. But detectives can gather together lots or other observations which may all point toward a particular suspect. If a person’s fingerprints match those found on a dagger, this is evidence that he touched it. It doesn’t prove that he did the murder, but it can help when it’s joined up with lots of other evidence. Sometimes a detective can think about a whole lot of observations and suddenly realise that they fall into place and make sense if so-and-so did the murder.





Scientists - the specialists in discovering what is true about the world and the universe - often work like detectives. They make a guess ( called a hypothesis ) about what might be true. They then say to themselves: If that were really true, we ought to see so-and-so. This is called a prediction. For example, if the world is really round, we can predict that a traveller, going on and on in the same direction, should eventually find himself back where he started.When a doctor says that you have the measles, he doesn’t take one look at you and see measles. His first look gives him a hypothesis that you may have measles. Then he says to himself: If she has measles I ought to see...... Then he runs through the list of predictions and tests them with his eyes ( have you got spots? ); hands ( is your forehead hot? ); and ears ( does your chest wheeze in a measly way? ). Only then does he make his decision and say, " I diagnose that the child has measles. " Sometimes doctors need to do other tests like blood tests or X-Rays, which help their eyes, hands, and ears to make observations.





The way scientists use evidence to learn about the world is much cleverer and more complicated than I can say in a short letter. But now I want to move on from evidence, which is a good reason for believing something , and warn you against three bad reasons for believing anything. They are called "tradition," "authority," and "revelation.



"

First, tradition. A few months ago, I went on television to have a discussion with about fifty children. These children were invited because they had been brought up in lots of different religions. Some had been brought up as Christians, others as Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Sikhs. The man with the microphone went from child to child, asking them what they believed. What they said shows up exactly what I mean by "tradition." Their beliefs turned out to have no connection with evidence. They just trotted out the beliefs of their parents and grandparents which, in turn, were not based upon evidence either. They said things like: "We Hindus believe so and so"; "We Muslims believe such and such"; "We Christians believe something else.



"

Of course, since they all believed different things, they couldn’t all be right. The man with the microphone seemed to think this quite right and proper, and he didn’t even try to get them to argue out their differences with each other. But that isn’t the point I want to make for the moment. I simply want to ask where their beliefs come from. They came from tradition. Tradition means beliefs handed down from grandparent to parent to child, and so on. Or from books handed down through the centuries. Traditional beliefs often start from almost nothing; perhaps somebody just makes them up originally, like the stories about Thor and Zeus. But after they’ve been handed down over some centuries, the mere fact that they are so old makes them seem special. People believe things simply because people have believed the same thing over the centuries. That’s tradition.





The trouble with tradition is that, no matter how long ago a story was made up, it is still exactly as true or untrue as the original story was.



If you make up a story that isn’t true, handing it down over a number of centuries doesn’t make it any truer!

Most people in England have been baptised into the Church of England, but this is only one of the branches of the Christian religion. There are other branches such as Russian Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, and the Methodist churches. They all believe different things. The Jewish religion and the Muslim religion are a bit more different still; and there are different kinds of Jews and of Muslims. People who believe even slightly different things from each other go to war over their disagreements. So you might think that they must have some pretty good reasons - evidence - for believing what they believe. But actually, their different beliefs are entirely due to different traditions.





Let’s talk about one particular tradition. Roman Catholics believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was so special that she didn’t die but was lifted bodily in to Heaven. Other Christian traditions disagree, saying that Mary did die like anybody else. These other religions don’t talk about much and, unlike Roman Catholics, they don’t call her the "Queen of Heaven." The tradition that Mary’s body was lifted into Heaven is not an old one. The bible says nothing on how she died; in fact, the poor woman is scarcely mentioned in the Bible at all. The belief that her body was lifted into Heaven wasn’t invented until about six centuries after Jesus’ time. At first, it was just made up, in the same way as any story like "Snow White" was made up. But, over the centuries, it grew into a tradition and people started to take it seriously simply because the story had been handed down over so many generations. The older the tradition became, the more people took it seriously. It finally was written down as and official Roman Catholic belief only very recently, in 1950, when I was the age you are now. But the story was no more true in 1950 than it was when it was first invented six hundred years after Mary’s death.





I’ll come back to tradition at the end of my letter, and look at it in another way. But first, I must deal with the two other bad reasons for believing in anything: authority and revelation.





Authority, as a reason for believing something, means believing in it because you are told to believe it by somebody important. In the Roman Catholic Church, the pope is the most important person, and people believe he must be right just because he is the pope. In one branch of the Muslim religion, the important people are the old men with beards called ayatollahs. Lots of Muslims in this country are prepared to commit murder, purely because the ayatollahs in a faraway country tell them to.





When I say that it was only in 1950 that Roman Catholics were finally told that they had to believe that Mary’s body shot off to Heaven, what I mean is that in 1950, the pope told people that they had to believe it. That was it. The pope said it was true, so it had to be true! Now, probably some of the things that that pope said in his life were true and some were not true. There is no good reason why, just because he was the pope, you should believe everything he said any more than you believe everything that other people say. The present pope ( 1995 ) has ordered his followers not to limit the number of babies they have. If people follow this authority as slavishly as he would wish, the results could be terrible famines, diseases, and wars, caused by overcrowding.





Of course, even in science, sometimes we haven’t seen the evidence ourselves and we have to take somebody else’s word for it. I haven’t, with my own eyes, seen the evidence that light travels at a speed of 186,000 miles per second. Instead, I believe books that tell me the speed of light. This looks like "authority." But actually, it is much better than authority, because the people who wrote the books have seen the evidence and anyone is free to look carefully at the evidence whenever they want. That is very comforting. But not even the priests claim that there is any evidence for their story about Mary’s body zooming off to Heaven.





The third kind of bad reason for believing anything is called "revelation." If you had asked the pope in 1950 how he knew that Mary’s body disappeared into Heaven, he would probably have said that it had been "revealed" to him. He shut himself in his room and prayed for guidance. He thought and thought, all by himself, and he became more and more sure inside himself. When religious people just have a feeling inside themselves that something must be true, even though there is no evidence that it is true, they call their feeling "revelation." It isn’t only popes who claim to have revelations. Lots of religious people do. It is one of their main reasons for believing the things that they do believe.



But is it a good reason?

Suppose I told you that your dog was dead. You’d be very upset, and you’d probably say, "Are you sure? How do you know? How did it happen?" Now suppose I answered: "I don’t actually know that Pepe is dead. I have no evidence. I just have a funny feeling deep inside me that he is dead." You’d be pretty cross with me for scaring you, because you’d know that an inside "feeling" on its own is not a good reason for believing that a whippet is dead. You need evidence. We all have inside feelings from time to time, sometimes they turn out to be right and sometimes they don’t. Anyway, different people have opposite feelings, so how are we to decide whose feeling is right? The only way to be sure that a dog is dead is to see him dead, or hear that his heart has stopped; or be told by somebody who has seen or heard some real evidence that he is dead.





People sometimes say that you must believe in feelings deep inside, otherwise, you’ d never be confident of things like "My wife loves me." But this is a bad argument. There can be plenty of evidence that somebody loves you. All through the day when you are with somebody who loves you, you see and hear lots of little titbits of evidence, and they all add up. It isn’t a purely inside feeling, like the feeling that priests call revelation. There are outside things to back up the inside feeling: looks in the eye, tender notes in the voice, little favors and kindnesses; this is all real evidence.





Sometimes people have a strong inside feeling that somebody loves them when it is not based upon any evidence, and then they are likely to be completely wrong. There are people with a strong inside feeling that a famous film star loves them, when really the film star hasn’t even met them. People like that are ill in their minds. Inside feelings must be backed up by evidence, otherwise you just can’t trust them.





Inside feelings are valuable in science, too, but only for giving you ideas that you later test by looking for evidence. A scientist can have a "hunch’" about an idea that just "feels" right. In itself, this is not a good reason for believing something. But it can be a good reason for spending some time doing a particular experiment, or looking in a particular way for evidence. Scientists use inside feelings all the time to get ideas. But they are not worth anything until they are supported by evidence.





I promised that I’d come back to tradition, and look at it in another way. I want to try to explain why tradition is so important to us. All animals are built (by the process called evolution) to survive in the normal place in which their kind live. Lions are built to be good at surviving on the plains of Africa. Crayfish to be good at surviving in fresh, water, while lobsters are built to be good at surviving in the salt sea. People are animals, too, and we are built to be good at surviving in a world full of ..... other people. Most of us don’t hunt for our own food like lions or lobsters; we buy it from other people who have bought it from yet other people. We ’’swim’’ through a "sea of people." Just as a fish needs gills to survive in water, people need brains that make them able to deal with other people. Just as the sea is full of salt water, the sea of people is full of difficult things to learn. Like language.





You speak English, but your friend Ann-Kathrin speaks German. You each speak the language that fits you to ’..swim about" in your own separate "people sea." Language is passed down by tradition. There is no other way . In England, Pepe is a dog. In Germany he is ein Hund. Neither of these words is more correct, or more true than the other. Both are simply handed down. In order to be good at "swimming about in their people sea," children have to learn the language of their own country, and lots of other things about their own people; and this means that they have to absorb, like blotting paper, an enormous amount of traditional information. (Remember that traditional information just means things that are handed down from grandparents to parents to children.) The child’s brain has to be a sucker for traditional information. And the child can’t be expected to sort out good and useful traditional information, like the words of a language, from bad or silly traditional information, like believing in witches and devils and ever-living virgins.





It’s a pity, but it can’t help being the case, that because children have to be suckers for traditional information, they are likely to believe anything the grown-ups tell them, whether true or false, right or wrong. Lots of what the grown-ups tell them is true and based on evidence, or at least sensible. But if some of it is false, silly, or even wicked, there is nothing to stop the children believing that, too. Now, when the children grow up, what do they do? Well, of course, they tell it to the next generation of children. So, once something gets itself strongly believed - even if it is completely untrue and there never was any reason to believe it in the first place - it can go on forever.





Could this be what has happened with religions ? Belief that there is a god or gods, belief in Heaven, belief that Mary never died, belief that Jesus never had a human father, belief that prayers are answered, belief that wine turns into blood - not one of these beliefs is backed up by any good evidence. Yet millions of people believe them. Perhaps this because they were told to believe them when they were told to believe them when they were young enough to believe anything.





Millions of other people believe quite different things, because they were told different things when they were children. Muslim children are told different things from Christian children, and both grow up utterly convinced that they are right and the others are wrong. Even within Christians, Roman Catholics believe different things from Church of England people or Episcopalians, Shakers or Quakers , Mormons or Holy Rollers, and are all utterly covinced that they are right and the others are wrong. They believe different things for exactly the same kind of reason as you speak English and Ann-Kathrin speaks German. Both languages are, in their own country, the right language to speak. But it can’t be true that different religions are right in their own countries, because different religions claim that opposite things are true. Mary can’t be alive in Catholic Southern Ireland but dead in Protestant Northern Ireland.





What can we do about all this ? It is not easy for you to do anything, because you are only ten. But you could try this. Next time somebody tells you something that sounds important, think to yourself: "Is this the kind of thing that people probably know because of evidence? Or is it the kind of thing that people only believe because of tradition, authority, or revelation?" And, next time somebody tells you that something is true, why not say to them: "What kind of evidence is there for that?" And if they can’t give you a good answer, I hope you’ll think very carefully before you believe a word they say.





Your loving

Daddy

FROM SCIENCEDEBATE 2008

As you watched the scores of U.S. Presidential debates, did you ever wonder why there has been no debate devoted to policy surrounding what may be the most important social issue of our time: Science and Technology?

We did and we want to make sure it happens.

Science Debate 2008 is a grassroots initiative spearheaded by a growing number of scientists and other concerned citizens. The signatories to our "Call for a Presidential Debate on Science & Technology" include Nobel laureates and other leading scientists, presidents of universities, congresspersons of both major political parties, business leaders, religious leaders, former presidential science advisors, the editors of America's major science journals, writers, and the current and several past presidents of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, among many others.

We have noticed that science and technology lie at the center of a very large number of the policy issues facing our nation and the world - issues that profoundly affect our national and economic security as science and technology continue to transform our lives. No matter one's political stripe, these issues pose important pragmatic policy challenges.

We believe these scientific and technological policy challenges can bring out the best in the entrepreneurial American spirit. America can be a leader in finding cures for our worst diseases, inventing the best alternative energy sources, and graduating the most scientifically literate children in the world - or we can concede these economic and humanitarian benefits to other countries.

We believe a debate on these issues would be the ideal opportunity for America and the candidates to explore our national priorities on the issues, and it is hard to imagine any candidate not wishing to be involved in such an occasion.

Please join us and make Science Debate 2008 a reality.

CLICK HERE TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR THIS INITIATIVE

QUIZ:
1) Which candidate pledges to modernize the electricity grids and open them to more distributed and renewable generation?

2) Which candidate had the following to say about global warming: "And while we don't know for certain how or why climate change is occurring, it makes sense to take reasonable steps to reduce CO2 emissions without harming our economy"?

3)Which candidate has a plan for reducing electronic waste such as that from outdated computers and cell phones?

4) Which candidate has said that the next U.S. president must "press ahead with building a national missile defense system"?

5) Which candidate wants to strengthen math and science education, but use funds from NASA to do it?

6) When asked about his views on creationism and evolution, which candidate said "if anybody wants to believe that they are descendants of a primate, they are certainly welcome to do it"?

7)Which candidate said the following about teaching evolution and creationism in public schools: "In my opinion, the science class is where to teach evolution, or if there are other scientific thoughts that need to be discussed...If we're going to talk about more philosophical matters, like why it was created, and was there an intelligent designer behind it, that's for the religion class or philosophy class or social studies class"?

8)Which candidate has pledged to reestablish the Office of Technology Assessment?

9)Which candidate called the Bush administration's stance on climate change "terribly disappointing" and has vowed to "make global warming a priority"?

10) Which candidate posits that "the key to sound environmental policy is respect for private property rights"?

ANSWERS:

1. John Edwards (source)
2. Fred Thompson (source)
3. Dennis Kucinich (source)
4. Rudy Giuliani (source)
5. Barack Obama (source) (source2)
6. Mike Huckabee (source)
7. Mitt Romney (source)
8. Hillary Clinton (source)
9. John McCain (source) (source2)
10. Ron Paul (source)

Okay...I can no longer send a message to the person who STARTED this conversation. So I guess I will have to address her last email here...perhaps she will get it, if not, whatever.

Here is our ongoing coversation:

----------------- Original Message -----------------

From: KT
Date: Jan 6, 2008 3:33 AM


Hi

My name is Kristi and I was hoping that we could some how discuss our opinions on things. In a friendly fasion however=)

Im not here to say that your wrong. Im here maybe to tell you something that you didn't already know. I think most people that don't believe in God, don't believe because they don't know about him or about his son Jesus Christ that let some vicious men kill him for both YOU AND ME over 2,000 years ago.

Did you know that that average amount of manuscripts made in a 90 year period from great leaders such as Ceasar and others were around 400-900 copies. However in 90 years there was 24,000 copies made of chapters and personal testmonies of Jesus Christ. Some group of people knew that it was important to spread the word of Jesus!!

I also ask that you research RFID, and Real ID act. Higher "earthly" powers are already set in motion to fulfill yet again another prophesy from the Bible....Revelations...the world is getting crazy. And he is fullfilling his signs...more and more disaters on earth and miracles too! Did you hear about the man from New York last week who fell 47 stories and lived!!! The man was interviewed and even thanked God saying...it must have not been his time. It says in the bible when the time of Jesus's second return gets closer, that there will be more and more great "heavenly miracles" and man made miracles.

The government- they are hiding things...there is sooooo much proof that 9/11 was an inside job- they are working on a one World Order...in May of 2008 it all starts with the RFID chip placement in our National Id's that they are making us replace with our state ID'S. If you don't believe me, look it up are talk to your local State Drivers Facility.

My friend...I dont know you but please research further into whats really happening in this world...Don't let the evil powers of the world (Satan) win your soul by allowing you to believe that nothing is going on.

God Bless you and I hope that you recieve a message from him. I will pray for you. Just keep your heart, ears, and eyes open...he will come to you=)

hugs
kristi


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 7, 2008 4:47 PM


You keep praying for me, and I'll keep hoping that people such as yourself will one day see reason. It is so frustrating that so many people are still deluded in this day and age.

More education + more knowledge = less chance of believing in a personal higher power.

Good luck to you.

-Star




----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 7, 2008 5:02 PM


hello,

this is tasha, just out of curiosity, what do you beleive in? or how do you think you became? why do you think you are here?

thanks,
tasha



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 8, 2008 8:20 AM


What do I BELIEVE in? Why does it even matter? I believe that science gives us the best possible answers to the reality of our world and that religion does not.

I believe that my parents had sex and created me through this intercourse.

The only purpose is the purpose I give myself - and that is to love my children and raise them in a indoctrinated-free home...to love my husband and support him in any way I can...to help and love my family and friends...to do what I can for my fellow man...to do what I can for the planet.

One does not need a belief in a god to be happy or find "meaning" in life.

Here are a few articles I've written if you're interested...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&frien
dID=152453053&blogID=309379864&Mytoken=35808A97-3B31-4D35-90497
003CE7A6F2210846409
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/reason_atheist.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/share_atheism.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/evolution_religion.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/evolution_proof.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/origin_life.htm

Have a great day.

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 8, 2008 12:10 PM


...well my question was how do you think you are here?....how did your parents get here? how were we made? yes, we are the result, physically, of intercourse, but who or what even made that possible. do you not agree that our bodies and this earth we live on are pretty miraculous? i am just curious how you think we all got here if it were not a higher power. even when i did not beleive in god, i couldnt really come up with a reasonable explanantion for this....



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 8, 2008 1:20 PM


The links to the articles I gave you answer your question. They explain my thinking process on where I am now in life and my viewpoints on that question. It is not just a simple answer like "GOD DID IT." Once that is your answer you stop asking questions. It's a cop-out.

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 8, 2008 5:00 PM


Do you honestly think that we are the ONLY creation in the universe? Honeslty? I've taken an Astronomy course and its actually a hobby of mine on the side to study and research (by the way I don't know about Carl Sagon's religion but I have watched many of his explanations on space and have enjoyed them) However, its a big big place and the size of it alone should make you feel humbled.

Kristi



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 8, 2008 6:42 PM


Nope, I absolutely DO NOT think that we are the only living thing in the universe and the size of the universe DOES humble me. What exactly are you referring to? Where did I say that I didn't think any other life existed?

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 8, 2008 8:54 PM


You never said that it didn't. Have you ever wondered really what could have put us here? The idea that there is other intelligance in the universe? My God is my father who put me here. And surely who knew with the sin of Adam and Eve that we would be a destructive civilazation. If I were him I would leave us here to and not come back until man destructed it himself...which is what is happening. Thats why you should really consider:

Revelations 21:2 (The apostle John sees in his vision)

And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of the heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. (meaning fresh/clean/virgin oriented/NEW/clean from sin)

If you have a bible read the rest of this it explains the new city will be 1,400 miles by 14,000 miles, by 1,400 miles, by 1,400 miles..... a perfect square with walls that are 216 feet thick. Think about it.

=) Kristi



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 9, 2008 7:06 AM


Look chica, man is NOT destroying themselves. Humanity is becoming less and less barbaric as time passes. There is less violence and more goodwill. It is a shame that your religion teaches otherwise.

Do you realize how arrogant you sound? Your words say "I am one of the chosen. I am worthy of God. YOU better be ready. You better clean your house. Jesus only saves those who are worthy."

It makes me sick really, but I used to be like that too I guess. Christianity uses fear of loss, the fear of punishment, the evils of Satan and sin, the idea that Christians are persecuted - and wrap it up into a nice package called redemption and everlasting life with a nice guy named Jesus. It's called brainwashing.

http://godisimaginary.com/
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 9, 2008 2:39 PM


Star-

I'm not brainwashed I just believe in my heavenly Fathers message- if you call that brainwashed then I want to be brainwashed by it. And yes I want to meet Jesus my savior.

And those that except Jesus are worthy of redemption.

Peace be with you.

Kristi



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 9, 2008 3:35 PM


Here is something I read today for you to consider.

From Christopher Hitchens:

"How much vanity must be concealed–and not too effectively at that–in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan? How much self-respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of one's own sin? How many needless assumptions must be made, and how much contortion is required, to receive every new insight of science and manipulate it so as to 'fit' with the revealed works of ancient man-made deities? How many saints and miracles and councils and conclaves are required in order first to be able to establish a dogma and then–after infinite pain and loss and absurdity and cruelty–to be forced to rescind one of those dogmas? God did not create man in his own image. Evidently, it was the other way about, which is the painless explanation for the profusion of gods and religions, and the fratricide both between and among faiths, that we see all about us and that has so retarded the development of civilization."

If you are really interested in what is the TRUTH, I would suggest reading something other than the Bible. I don't know...pick up a high school science text book. There is more knowledge in that book than you will ever find in the Bible.

Feel free to join the Rational Atheist Book Club and see what else is out there. Or don't. Feel free to enjoy your view of the world as well.

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 9, 2008 5:27 PM


Star:

Please note that I never sent you an email to make you mad or to argue...I really want people to understand the truth. And no matter how much you say I am crazy God says that at the end of time- people WILL see the truth. I just want people to see before its too late.

As for your comment about me to stop reading the bible. I read many things. I am a high school graduate and I am a semeter away from being a junior in college. I have taked many science courses one of them being Astronomy (awesome course by the way-funny my teacher never said his religion but he admitted the many flaws in science and astronomy itself) I have 4 differant science texts on my desk right now that I do read- and three books based on religion 1 being the BIBLE and the other two books explaining ALL religions. I have taken a college course called WORLD RELGIONS, a college course called Law and Society (my professor actually worked for the Clinton Admin- and trust me she knows about the things this country trys to decieve us on...why do you think she became a teacher) I have taken a college course called Economics...(So yes I know about money and how distorted the "idea" of paper money that can be printed at the Governments request and they can be in debt trillions but let me assure you- your car will be repoed if you skip a few payments....

I don't know everything there is too know about everything and niether do you. I find it very unfourtante that people go around to other people pointing fingers saying they are right because they have more education. What is your deffintion of education is could totally be diffrant than mine.

Star. I am going to leave it at this though thank you for your time. I have tried sending you the message.

Kristi



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 9, 2008 5:56 PM


If you reach out to people you need to be ready to have a discussion and provide evidence for your position. There is a difference between READING a science book and really understanding the implications of the knowledge...And college courses do not equal understanding...even with an "A". However, if you do want to present yourself as an educated person, you may wish to watch out for spelling errors. I believe that in every correspondence we've had there has been at least one.

You don't make me mad.

The thing is - you sent me an email. An email that was exactly the same as you sent plenty of other people on myspace. You probably searched for "atheist" and then sent out a bunch of emails. I guess you feel like "GOD" was compelling you to do so. You probably felt good about doing it. But you don't REALLY care about me. If you did you would have read some of the links I gave you on how I came to be living the life I am currently living. You would have put some effort into understanding my position instead of feeding me generic comments...Your comments are very typical of what I receive from believers.

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 9, 2008 10:07 PM


Star:

At first you tell me to get an education then once I tell you I have an education-then you say I don't understand what I am getting from that education (that I cant comprehend?). I have passed all my courses with understanding...if I didn't understand than I would more than likely fail. Thats just common reasoning. About my spelling errors- Im sorry that this is something you think you can use against me- I am not emailing you my resume' nor is this a final 15 page paper that I am turning into a professor, we are two humans having conversation via email. I do proof read some of my eamils to to make sure I didn't leave out a word etc. but as far as two, to, too- there, their, and they're...I think you and I can understand one another as mature adults without getting too critical.

Yes, Im not going to lie to you I did search under atheist as well as I have Chrisitans to gain friendships. And I am sorry I didn't check one of your websites...so therefor I will.

Answer to 10 questions for Christians first being:

Why can't amputees be healed?

1.)Well I suppose the same reason why if a person lost an eye they wouldn't be able to see out of the eye ever again- but if they had an eye to see out of it could be healed. Like it says in the Bible we are given one fleshly body- Cancer is contained of cells (cells that you dont need and want to disappear and can because you don't need them to survive) Cancer 70 years ago was very uncommon, but due to the chemicals they are putting in are foods is what is doing it to us. The chemicals on produce to make them grow faster and larger, and to keep other foods last longer on the shelf...this is sad too. They are actually starting to say that children are maturing at a faster rate do to the steriods we are feeding or farm animals.

2.)Why hasn't God answered our prayers about the suffering children who are starving?

Actually many people in this world whether they are Christians or not donate money to help them. And even though they look like they are terribly suffering (they aren't used to what we are so blessed to have, so they might not even look at it as if they were suffering, You cant miss what you never had)

I think it points out the evil and selfishness in this world that we would rather make war than solve starvation or work on peace- and if you say war creates peace...no it doesn't it just delays it for another time. Look at Desert storm. Our prayers will be answered about those starving children when Jesus returns...remember in the Bible its says those who suffer the most here will get the greatest reward. Those children are here to test and see who helps and who won't- God's plan is greater than our brains can concieve.

3.Why does a loving God allow murder in the new testment?

Death of a girl who was not a virgin. People were to stone her to rid her because she was not pure- Back in those days the imbreeding was rampant which led to much more diesase and impurity. Remember the population at this point is very small compared to today's. Do remember in the new testement-God made everything new (Most of his laws) because the times had changed. IF WE HAVE A KING OF THIS NATION (U.S.A) WHY CANT THERE BE A KING OF THE UNIVERSE? HIS NAME IS GOD AND HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE PLEASES TO THOSE WHO HE CONSIDERS BREAK THE LAW- JUST AS IF I WERE TO GET A DUI- ONE WOULD BE PUNISHED.

4. Why does the bible use so much anti-science description?

This question just makes me giggle. The guys uses the word non-sence...well what he calls non-sense and what any other person on this planet calls non-sense are two total differant things...Maybe if he paints the color of his room pink and hes male...is that total non scense. Remember that science is nearly a substitue world for human intellagence. Besides they use certain language so that only those who have the spirit understand...some words they use aren't really the words that you think they mean.

5. About slavery?!?

We are all stills slaves if you think about it...we are slaves to our government...they will always be in debt and get away with it because they have the power to. Normal society can become victoms of debt and things can be taken away from them because they don't have any power of control. Simple answer.

6. Why do bad things happen to good people?

Well if this guy knew the Bible at all he would know that in Corinthians there are several verses on why bad things happen to good people. Its to test their faith...to make them stronger...what do you tell your teenage daughter if she breaks up with her first love. You tell her she will find her one true love and the loss of this one only makes her stronger and more knowledgeable about the next. And that when she finds the one true love, she will look back at her past and laugh that she was so upset. Because things are better in the future if you trust in good.

7. Why didn't any of Jesus's miracles leave any evidence?

Because all of his miracles were done onto people...he never made anything material except when he changed water to wine...but they drank the wine. (Does this guy who runs this site know any of the scriptures?)

8.Why hasn't Jesus ever appeared to us?

Well once again...one must understand the trinity...FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. Its like you Star, you may be a daughter, sister, and mother. H20 can be vapor, ice, or water itself. The father created us and saved us through his son which was himself (spirit) in a earthly body and because of his son the Holy Spirit can rise in any of us...there for once you accept Christ as your savior he lives in you! I don't see him, this is true... BUT I hear him...and I deffently feel his presence...and yes he can do wonderful things to your mind which help you do physical things.

9.) Why would Jesus want you to drink his blood and eat his body?

Our Lord made a speech which should be read and reread. Here we quote a few phrases: "I am the Bread of Life"; "I am the Living Bread, which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world"; "He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, abides in me, and I in him"; "He that eats me shall live by me." (HE IS SAYING LISTEN TO HIM- ACCCEPT HIM)

10. Why do Christians have the same divorce rate as non Christians?

This is truley sad. This society has really taken love and marriage for granted...I myself have sinned and had premarital sex....but since I have devoted myself to Christ I have made a promise to him and trust that he will forgive my sin...I am now waiting until I get married...I hate that I made that mistake...but I am only human. Its sad that people know they can buy their ways out of marriage when God said from the begining to trust in him and one another and work through it. People don't seem to marry for love anymore...Women are getting pregnant before marriage and feel obligated...a lot of people marry for money and then want out once they can't take it anymore...It truley is sad.
As for Christians being a part of this...I have no room to judge people personally why or why not their marriage failed.


Hope you understand that I do come to you with good intentions....

=) Kristi


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 10, 2008 4:36 AM


Thanks for checking out that link Kristi, but I was referring to the links about MY personal life...

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&frien

dID=152453053&blogID=309379864&Mytoken=35808A97-3B31-4D35-90
497
003CE7A6F2210846409
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/reason_atheist.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/share_atheism.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/evolution_religion.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/evolution_proof.htm
http://rationalatheist.com/Articles/origin_life.htm

Written by me.

It is interesting that cancer has been around for millions of years...Have you seen I am Legend? A doctor supposedly comes up with a cure for cancer and years later most of the inhabitants of Earth are turned into these zombie-looking things.

The point of the question, Why Won't God Heal Amputees is that if God is all powerful and we pray to god and we think that he heals OTHER ills...why can't he heal this one? Is it beyond his power? Isn't he supposed to provide miracles? Although other medical "miracles" are supposedly brought by god the fact that no amputees are healed is evidence that there really ARE no medical "miracles." The definition of miracle being something that cannot happen outside of natural means.

You cant miss what you never had???!!! WHAT the fuck are you talking about? OF COURSE you can miss what you never had. I don't WANT a god who makes children suffer so that he can TEST the ones he doesn't kill. That's ludicrous! Does that sound like a LOVING god to you? Is the point of every evil and every death a TEST to the ones surviving? Have you experienced death in your life? Have you seen a child hit by a car? Have you seen them struggle for life and code 15 times in a month? Have you seen them live for 4 years in a vegetative state before finding them dead? WHAT is the purpose for such cruelty? The thing of the matter is, there is no greater purpose for "evil" in this world...shit happens. But instead of waiting for a god to come to fix our problems, we need to realize there is NO ONE coming and fix it ourselves!

There are ways to punish people without killing them. I don't KILL and STONE TO DEATH my son for a wrong.

Anyway Kristi. You still have a life to live. I too have "experienced" god. But these experiences merely happened in my own mind...I can still have these spiritual experiences looking up at the stars...or out at the ocean, or my son's face. Sometimes they make me weep.

All I can say is that I am glad I am raising my sons in an environment that is religion-free. My 10-year-old is more honest than his Christian counterparts - more himself - he is not growing up thinking there is some invisible man watching his every move - he is not second guessing his every thought and action. He doesn't have the burden of feeling sinful so that he can be brainwashed and controlled. He is loving and kind and honest and does the right thing because it's the RIGHT thing not because there is some god watching over his shoulder.

I wish that I have been given the same chance.

I never told you to get an education. I merely said that the more education a person has statistically speaking the less chance of them believing in a higher power. This is merely a fact. YOU are the one who brought up all your education and I merely pointed out that classes don't mean you assimilated the information.

Misspelling happens to be a pet peeve of mine and one that people who are trying to present themselves as educated should take seriously. You have A LOT of typos. Not just two or three. I was trying to be nice about it...and it's not just they're or their or too or two...

You are right - this is just an email - but I believe that even in emails people should present themselves in a professional manner if the occasion calls for it. When discussing religion or politics I think the occasion calls for it. You may not - that's fine. Keep misspelling - this merely detracts from what you're trying to say and makes you appear less professional.

I understand that you come to me with good intentions.

-Star



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: KT
Date: Jan 10, 2008 3:22 PM


Star,

You and I could circle around things until the day we leave this planet.

Bringing up I am Robot the movie is not a very good argument...can't you see what Hollywood has done to many people...what makes you think that I am going to believe ANYTHING hollywood tells me? God says many will come to decieve.

My whole point is....This universe is larger than both our brains can wrap around...what makes you think that there is not a higher power that has anything to do with us being here? If you believe in science so much ask yourself: are we really the universe's only hope to save humanity- is there nothing out there that is better than us? More advanced. There is a society there for sure- NASA has proof of it- they just don't want to tell people! Our government knows too!

Jesus is Lord our savior to tell us of the good new of the Kindom of God and its unfortanute that many do not believe that there are powers over us. Like I said...if we can have a leader of this country, why can we not have a leader of this universe?? I promise you that you will know the truth in your lifetime....or in your death.

Like Jesus mentioned how sad it is that many hearts are hardened. Your hard heart is what makes you curse at me, or tell me that I am a lesser person because my spelling is off or my grammer. Why? Why does that matter if I make a mistake- why do you think you have the right to tally my mistakes and judge my intelligance by my spelling? I tell you that anyone that knows me would tell you that I would do anything for you and that they could care less about my spelling-its what is one the inside of a person that counts. And because of these hard hearts is why we "humanity" suffer. But in the end he will collect those hearts that remained strong til the end.

=)
Kristi



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: RationalAtheist.com
Date: Jan 10, 2008 3:41 PM


I don't bring up the movie "I Am Legend" (not I am Robot) as part of an argument. I brought it up merely as small talk. The whole point of the movie was that even though there is much suffering in the world there is still a god who loves us...I only asked if you'd seen it...I wasn't trying to use it to make any kind of a point. I did mention it when I mentioned that cancer was millions of years old...did you think I was using the movie as proof of this? I don't need the movie for proof of this...we have dinosaur fossils that show actual evidence of this.

There is no grand government conspiracy about an alien civilization. Why would NASA only know of it and not any of the other foreign countries out there? How many people would know about it? How many people would keep quiet about it?

Most of what you write is irrational...there's no other way to put it. One can only take so much irrationality in a week. Good luck to you.

:)
-Star



[HER LAST EMAIL THAT I WAS UNABLE TO RESPOND TO]
Star:

My last cry out to you is this: pay attention to the news...the weather will change, strange things will happenn peace will be talked about with God's people in Isreal (which Bush is over there now, he says a treaty will be signed before the end of the year) Reread the Bible and the signs of the times will lead you to Jesus. Please. Take my word.

This is the last I want to explain to you. You have my word. Now listen. Listen for your son!! Follow the news and read the Bible. May you find the Kingdom of God, for it is there- you just have to accept it.

Love
Kristi



[MY RESPONSE]
SCARE TACTICS??? For the love of god! (pun obviously intended.) People have been shooting off at the mouth about the end of the world for millennium. PLEASE DON'T HELP BRING IT ABOUT!!!! WE ARE IN CONTROL OF HOW LONG THE HUMAN RACE SURVIVES. You want me to think of MY son. How about YOU think about YOUR son and what you are teaching him! The FEAR that you are implanting in his innocent mind. My sons will be able to choose what they want to believe. Will yours?

When that end of the world thing happens, you let me know. And if there is some kind of afterlife and YOU end up in heaven and I end up in hell...then you can say "I Told you So." But until then...well, your silence will be kind of nice. Have a great life.

Who would the world elect?

Ron Paul is in the lead...so get your butts on over there and vote!

Suicide
bomb DVD targets children

by Metro.co.uk

December 18, 2007

A children's DVD which appears to glorify suicide bombing was being investigated by police today after being found on sale.

The disc, filled with haunting images and dramatic music, features a young girl proclaiming that she will follow in the footsteps of her suicide bomber mother.

The DVD, which was purchased in Bradford, West Yorkshire, is set to music sung by children in Arabic with English subtitles.

West Yorkshire was home to three of the suicide bombers responsible for the July 7 London bombings - Mohammad Sidique Khan, from Dewsbury, and Hasib Mir Hussain and Shehzad Tanweer, both from Beeston in Leeds.

The first video shows an Arab woman playing with her two children before leaving her home with dynamite tucked into her dress.

She is approached by uniformed soldiers and the camera pauses on her thoughtful expression before a large explosion blazes across the screen.

After finding out about the suicide on television, her small daughter finds a stick of dynamite in her mother's wardrobe and turns to the camera with the subtitles: "My love will not be by words. I will follow my mother's steps."

The head of Leeds counter terrorism unit (CTU), Detective Chief Superintendent John Parkinson, said: "We can confirm a DVD has been passed to the CTU for further investigation.

"The DVD has been initially reviewed and officers are carrying out further inquiries regarding its content to establish whether or not any offences have been committed."

The material was uncovered by the Yorkshire Post and passed to the police, who were unable to say where in Bradford the DVDs were being sold.